Bronwyn Schweigerdt: The Truth About Anger - Why Angry People Don't Really Exist

1 00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hello, hello.

00:00:01
It's Nadine here, and I'm here with this week's episode of Life

00:00:05
, health and the Universe, and this week I'm joined by Bronwyn

00:00:11
Swaggart.

00:00:11
Got it right?

00:00:13
Yep, welcome Bronwyn.

00:00:16
We did have a kind of little quick joke about how us Aussies

00:00:20
probably want to call you Bronny us.

00:00:22
Speaker 2: Aussies probably want to call you Bronnie.

00:00:23
I mean I love it because in the United States people are like,

00:00:35
oh, that's such a unique name Really, so I love it that

00:00:37
anyone's even heard my name, much less have a nickname

00:00:39
already for me.

00:00:39
Speaker 1: I love that, I love it, I love it.

00:00:40
The Aussies have this special knack of giving everyone a

00:00:44
nickname.

00:00:45
So, yeah, you're not alone.

00:00:49
So, welcome Bronwyn.

00:00:52
I want to say Bronnie again, just because Quick intro from me

00:01:00
You're a psychotherapist and anger expert, uh, you're the,

00:01:05
you're an author and a podcaster and uh, you specialize, I

00:01:10
believe, in marriage and family therapy.

00:01:13
Um, and you have, um, well, you , you work in helping people

00:01:19
break free of depression, anxiety disorder and even

00:01:23
psychosis by reconnecting them with their anger.

00:01:27
That's in a nutshell, you and your specialization.

00:01:31
No doubt we're going to get into a whole bunch of really

00:01:36
interesting stuff here and I'm really looking forward to our

00:01:40
conversation.

00:01:41
So welcome, let me hand over to you.

00:01:44
You can fill in any gaps um, and then we'll tease out all of the

00:01:48
things well, no, I mean, why don't you go ahead and dive in?

00:01:53
because I know you are chomping at the bit oh, okay, okay, well,

00:01:58
um, so there was nothing else you wanted to add to that little

00:02:01
intro no, because I think it'll get you know um, unrevealed as

00:02:08
I go, cool yeah and um, you're adding a little bit of mystery,

00:02:16
um, so what I'm gonna say, before we do get stuck in, is I

00:02:21
listened to part of one of your podcasts this morning and it was

00:02:28
an episode called the truth about love, health and freedom,

00:02:32
and one thing that you just said about you said about yourself

00:02:35
was that you're I can't remember the exact words, but you said

00:02:40
something like I'm kind of intense, or people tell me I'm

00:02:43
intense, or something like that.

00:02:44
Right, and I thought, well, that's interesting, but what I,

00:02:50
what I gained from listening to your episode about you is that

00:02:55
you have some hard truths that you're delivering and they can

00:02:59
be difficult for people to swallow, but I actually love

00:03:05
that.

00:03:05
You have those hard truths and you're and you're not um, you

00:03:09
don't express them in an unkind way.

00:03:11
It's it's.

00:03:13
It's actually a very generous way of expressing these, these

00:03:20
nuggets of information you have because we're, because we're um,

00:03:23
we can often be led down the wrong path or believe that

00:03:26
there's something wrong with us that needs to be fixed and

00:03:30
you're like no, we're just getting it, we're just getting

00:03:35
it wrong, so, anyway that.

00:03:37
So let's warn the audience we might be sharing some hard

00:03:41
truths today with this intense woman, um, but uh, really, the

00:03:47
the information that we're going to unpack is invaluable, I

00:03:51
believe.

00:03:51
So let's dive in my yeah, yeah.

00:03:56
So let's talk about anger.

00:03:58
Let's just get straight in.

00:04:00
I've got, I've got a whole bunch of notes written in, but

00:04:03
one thing that you identify yourself as is as an anger

00:04:10
expert.

00:04:11
So, yeah, let's start high level.

00:04:14
What is anger?

00:04:16
What is anger?

00:04:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, that's a great place to start.

00:04:21
Good, that's a great place to start, yeah.

00:04:27
So anger the reason why I'm an anger expert is because I

00:04:29
believe it is the most misunderstood emotion thing like

00:04:33
in the whole universe, and not just by the general public, like

00:04:38
the therapeutic community, the psychology community, the

00:04:42
experts, even they just don't seem to know what to do with

00:04:47
anger or what anger can do, especially when we um

00:04:52
disassociate from our anger, which most humans tend to do.

00:04:55
Um.

00:04:57
So, yeah, I could say more about that.

00:05:00
But, um, what is anger?

00:05:03
Anger is a secondary emotion, meaning there is always a

00:05:08
primary emotion under the anger, and that primary emotion is

00:05:13
some kind of pain, some kind of hurt, and it's usually, if not

00:05:20
almost always, some kind of feeling of rejection.

00:05:24
And when I say rejection, I mean everything synonymous with

00:05:28
rejection.

00:05:28
So feeling excluded, feeling, um, some ways abandoned, and

00:05:36
rejection can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.

00:05:39
If we felt rejected as children , uh, chronically, by our

00:05:45
parents, which a lot of us did, and we don't even, we don't even

00:05:48
know, you know at a conscious level that we did, it's kind of

00:05:53
unconscious, um, then we have this big trigger and whenever we

00:05:59
perceive something to even feel , or you know something to even

00:06:09
feel, or, you know, smell like rejection.

00:06:10
We get triggered and we show anger or we feel anger.

00:06:12
So let me give you an example Someone who is really

00:06:14
hypersensitive to rejection because they, you know, felt it

00:06:19
throughout their young childhood , early childhood.

00:06:22
But they haven't done the work, they're not aware of it.

00:06:25
They can feel rejected just when another person, especially

00:06:32
a person close to them, like a partner, you know, a romantic

00:06:35
partner, or a child, has their own unique set of thoughts and

00:06:41
feelings and even ideologies, and and that feels like a

00:06:46
rejection and they get angry.

00:06:49
And so a lot of my clients that I work with, um, you know, I

00:06:53
mainly work with I only work, I should say, with individuals now

00:06:56
, but, um, you know, they grew up where they felt a lot of

00:07:01
anger from the parent If they tried to differentiate, you know

00:07:05
, go through that process that we're supposed to go through in

00:07:08
our teenage years and become our own unique people.

00:07:12
And because the parent felt rejected when the child said,

00:07:15
you know, turns out I don't ascribe to those same beliefs

00:07:19
that you raised me to have, or it turns out I have a different

00:07:24
sexual orientation, or it turns out I have my own unique set of

00:07:27
thoughts and beliefs, whatever that means, and so it's not.

00:07:32
Yeah, so it can hide under a lot of things, like we could.

00:07:36
It could be hidden under, you know, fundamentalism, religion,

00:07:43
belief systems of the parents, but what it really is it's anger

00:07:46
, because the parent feels rejected and abandoned, because

00:07:51
their trigger is so big, and so the child only knows, I don't

00:07:55
know, it feels like my parent hates me, and so often the child

00:07:59
won't differentiate well, or, if at all, because they can't

00:08:04
tolerate the, the parent will abandon them back in some way

00:08:07
and the child can't, you know, really do that and so, but

00:08:11
that's one example.

00:08:12
So anger, the anger that hurts us the most, that harms us, is

00:08:19
rooted in feelings of rejection, betrayal, abandonment.

00:08:23
The anger that I feel when someone cuts me off when I'm

00:08:27
driving my car, that's not.

00:08:29
I mean, yeah, I could lead to violence and it could physically

00:08:31
hurt me, but that's not the anger that is going to make me

00:08:35
psychologically sick or physiologically sick because I

00:08:40
can just allow myself to go.

00:08:41
You know what, what a jerk he cut me off.

00:08:45
But when I feel betrayed by my partner, by a parent, by my

00:08:50
child, by a really close friend, I don't feel oftentimes

00:08:57
entitled to feel those feelings.

00:09:00
I want to disassociate from them.

00:09:03
I don't want to be that vulnerable, um, so I

00:09:07
disassociate from my, my anger, and then I I get depressed and

00:09:11
that's actually how I ended up becoming a therapist.

00:09:14
Is I dissociated from my anger at my spouse, uh, when, and I

00:09:19
was in a very uh, severe depressive episode and, um, I

00:09:25
went to multiple therapists at the time and I was hardly

00:09:28
functioning and I sat there in the chair thinking, you know,

00:09:31
I'm barely functional right now, but I'm pretty sure I would

00:09:34
still make a better therapist to me than this person would.

00:09:37
So part of that healing journey was me becoming a therapist.

00:09:41
But anyway, my really severe depressive episodes in my life

00:09:46
and I've had about three that have been very severe and even

00:09:49
like debilitating Um, we're all from dissociated anger, you know

00:09:54
, whether it's at my spouse, uh, at a boss, at a good friend,

00:10:00
from feeling betrayed by them, and I just didn't feel entitled

00:10:04
to really feel those feelings because we judge our feelings

00:10:08
and we say you shouldn't feel that way, and so we dissociate.

00:10:12
And then the anger, you know I say anger is invisible, but it's

00:10:17
more real than this chair I'm sitting on right now.

00:10:19
It is so real and it doesn't just evaporate is so real and it

00:10:29
doesn't just evaporate, it's stagnates in our bodies and it

00:10:30
makes us sick.

00:10:31
And so we get depressed, we get anxious, we develop mania, we

00:10:33
develop psychosis.

00:10:34
At times we get autoimmune disorders, we get chronic

00:10:39
migraines, insomnia, gi problems .

00:10:44
All those things, I believe, are absolutely rooted in

00:10:48
disassociated anger that we have suppressed into our bodies and

00:10:53
we haven't channeled out in healthy ways.

00:10:56
Speaker 1: Wow, I wrote a whole bunch of things there.

00:11:00
That was um, where do I start?

00:11:05
Um, so when we feel so, you sort of said, when we feel

00:11:17
rejected, we disassociate from that feeling.

00:11:22
Would you say that then anger is the feeling that would

00:11:29
usually come?

00:11:30
Speaker 2: from that.

00:11:30
It can Disassociation.

00:11:38
Speaker 1: Or that we should use anger as a way of expressing

00:11:40
that feeling.

00:11:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean really.

00:11:42
So our anger.

00:11:43
I see anger as like the um, the light on the dashboard of our

00:11:49
car saying hey, hey, hey, let me get your attention.

00:11:52
Like something's wrong, check under the hood.

00:11:55
And so when we you know, and so we don't look at the dashboard

00:11:59
light on our car and go, that's annoying, I'm just going to

00:12:02
ignore that because it's so annoying.

00:12:04
No, we say, oh, wow, there's something wrong that needs my

00:12:08
attention, that needs resolution , and so that's what anger is.

00:12:12
And so if we can, you know, reorient our relationship with

00:12:16
our anger and not see it as evil , wicked, bad, sinful, whatever

00:12:22
shameful, um, and see it as you know, this is actually my body

00:12:26
telling me something's wrong, and I don't have to explode, I

00:12:32
can just say, you know, like what I could, what I really

00:12:35
needed to say to my my spouse, steve, back then when that

00:12:39
happened.

00:12:39
So we had undergone a move and I was extremely lonely, like I

00:12:46
was dying of loneliness because I knew no one, I had no job.

00:12:50
I just put my daughter in school Like it was.

00:12:52
It was horrific job.

00:12:57
I just put my daughter in school Like it was.

00:12:58
It was horrific.

00:12:59
And what I needed to say to him .

00:12:59
If I had been able to to connect to my anger and to

00:13:02
channel it out of my body in a healthy way, it would have led

00:13:05
me to say you know what, steve, I'm so lonely right now, and you

00:13:10
can tell I'm really struggling.

00:13:12
You can see how depressed I am, and what I need from you is

00:13:16
just to look me in the eyes and validate how I'm feeling.

00:13:20
Just say you know what, bronwyn , this looks so hard.

00:13:23
I see how hard it is for you and it it's breaking my heart.

00:13:28
If he had just done that, I would have felt like a million

00:13:32
dollars.

00:13:32
I would have felt not less alone because I was feeling so,

00:13:36
so lonely.

00:13:37
And then when he looked at me, I felt like he kind of had this

00:13:40
look in his eye like what's wrong with you, can you just get

00:13:43
it together?

00:13:44
And so now I felt more lonely.

00:13:47
I felt like my you know, my attachment partner is now

00:13:52
rejecting me too, or, you know, um estranging me in a way.

00:13:56
And um, yeah, if I could have just said that, it would have

00:14:01
been really helpful, cause I know he would have stepped up to

00:14:03
the plate and done it, but I didn't do that and he didn't

00:14:07
know what to do, and so the depression just kept spiraling.

00:14:10
But you know.

00:14:11
So, channeling our anger doesn't mean yelling and

00:14:14
screaming.

00:14:15
It just means saying something like you know what, nadine,

00:14:19
that's not okay.

00:14:20
When you say that, like that's not okay, yeah, that's it.

00:14:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, that partly answered the next question I was

00:14:30
going to ask and I um, so I kind of yeah, I guess talk um

00:14:36
thinking about this idea of anger, um, because what we

00:14:40
generally think of as anger is like that explosive right so

00:14:45
it's like a reaction to a feeling, but it comes outward

00:14:49
and it can often be like an attack and I guess when you say

00:14:54
that, you know it's often can be a sign of rejection, for

00:15:00
example.

00:15:01
That that's kind of like a defense mechanism Right, push,

00:15:04
push away, defend and then the other side of it is that

00:15:10
disassociation of it is that disassociation, and it's when we

00:15:19
disassociate that that we can experience those feelings of,

00:15:21
although we can experience depression, anxiety, yeah, those

00:15:22
kind of things when there's outward anger, I would expect

00:15:27
that there's still those, uh, the there's still the

00:15:32
possibility of well, we're not getting to the bottom of it,

00:15:34
right, we're not getting to the possibility of.

00:15:35
Well, we're not getting to the bottom of it, right, we're not

00:15:37
getting to the bottom of the root cause.

00:15:39
And so yes there's that explosive or there's that

00:15:42
disassociation, but they both can lead to the same outcomes in

00:15:46
terms of how our mental health is affected, which is that yeah,

00:15:55
I mean the explosive people, um , they're the ones that everyone

00:16:01
gives the attention to, for better, for worse.

00:16:04
Speaker 2: they get all the attention and that.

00:16:05
So it's kind of like, you know, when I talk to my clients, it's

00:16:10
like all they think of is, oh, that's aggressive and the and

00:16:15
the only other alternative is to be passive, or, I guess,

00:16:18
passive, aggressive.

00:16:19
But really there's this healthy place called being assertive,

00:16:22
you know.

00:16:22
And so no one, it's like no one thinks about that.

00:16:26
No one thinks about, oh, I can just be assertive and say, hey,

00:16:29
that really hurts my feelings when you make fun of me right

00:16:32
now.

00:16:32
I don't have to explode and I don't have to dissociate, I can

00:16:36
just be assertive and and, yeah, so the explosive people do get

00:16:41
all the attention.

00:16:42
Everyone kind of caters to them , um, and so that we could talk

00:16:46
more about that, that cause.

00:16:47
That's no good either, but we all just need to say you know

00:16:51
what?

00:16:51
I'm angry, these are my feelings.

00:16:54
I'm only responsible for my feelings.

00:16:56
I'm not responsible for your anger.

00:17:16
You are, um, that's not a really responsible way to be

00:17:22
responsible for your anger.

00:17:23
Um, if you want to back up and you know, use your words and

00:17:29
tell me what's going on.

00:17:30
I'm willing to listen, I'm willing to work with you, but

00:17:32
I'm not going to work with, like you know, temper tantrum

00:17:36
throwing.

00:17:36
I'm not going to do that because I'm going to expect you

00:17:39
to be an adult and I'm going to be an adult as well wow, yeah, I

00:17:46
was, um, still more questions.

00:17:50
Speaker 1: Um, you mentioned the like driving in the car thing

00:17:55
and, you know, telling someone that they're a douchebag or

00:17:58
whatever, yeah, um, for cutting you off, um, and that that's not

00:18:04
the same.

00:18:05
But, like, when people are extremely angry or they take it

00:18:11
out on other people, or if they do become violent, would you say

00:18:16
that that's this a progression of the same thing, but at a more

00:18:20
extreme level, or are you, are you kind of saying that that's a

00:18:24
different?

00:18:28
Speaker 2: I think.

00:18:28
No, that's a great question.

00:18:30
I think that people who are violent so you, we I live in the

00:18:34
United States.

00:18:35
We have a lot of violence here.

00:18:37
We have a lot of gun violence.

00:18:38
We have a lot of driving violence we talked about driving

00:18:40
, um, but I really think that the people with the guns who are

00:18:45
irresponsible, the people who are irresponsible drivers and

00:18:48
there are many more irresponsible drivers than gun

00:18:51
owners Um, they don't get all the media but, um, but I think

00:18:58
they're all just taking out their anger because they can't.

00:19:03
They feel like they can't take it out, they can't display it,

00:19:07
they can't channel it out in a healthy way with their parents,

00:19:12
with their spouse, which whoever it is, and so it's just, you

00:19:16
know, going to come out somewhere.

00:19:19
I think a lot of people, when they get behind the uh, the

00:19:24
wheel, they just need to feel powerful and it's like oh, this

00:19:28
is the one place I can feel powerful, because they don't

00:19:32
feel that at their home.

00:19:34
Speaker 1: Right.

00:19:36
Speaker 2: So I'm not condoning that by any means, but I think

00:19:41
it.

00:19:41
I see it as symbolic.

00:19:43
Speaker 1: It's another expression of that.

00:19:45
Yeah.

00:19:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because if you're a healthy, functioning

00:19:49
person and you're assertive and you're getting all your needs

00:19:52
met, you don't need to feel powerful on the met, you don't

00:19:54
need to feel powerful on the road, you don't need to feel

00:19:57
powerful with a gun.

00:19:58
You already feel powerful because you're you're not

00:20:02
betraying yourself on a daily basis, you're being true to

00:20:05
yourself.

00:20:06
Yeah, yeah, and that's the good kind of power.

00:20:09
Yes, yeah.

00:20:12
Speaker 1: Um so I guess that kind of.

00:20:16
I guess that summarizes there's no such thing as an angry

00:20:20
person.

00:20:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't like the term angry person because to

00:20:26
me it's like, you know, if someone says, well, I'm not an

00:20:30
angry person, I would say, well, are you a breathing person?

00:20:33
Well, I'm not an angry person, I would say, well, are you a

00:20:35
breathing person?

00:20:35
Because we all have anger, like all humans have anger, and I

00:20:39
really want to like help break down that, that stereotype that

00:20:46
only some people have anger and some don't.

00:20:50
You know cause?

00:20:50
That's not true.

00:20:51
All humans have anger and you know, really, anger it's not

00:20:55
shameful, it's not bad, it's just a normal human experience

00:21:00
and it's there for a good reason .

00:21:02
It's there to say something's wrong.

00:21:04
It's not there.

00:21:06
You know, if we can start to see it more as that warning light,

00:21:11
then as something we need to judge, so we can judge our

00:21:14
actions, we can judge our behaviors, but we don't judge

00:21:19
our feelings.

00:21:19
Feelings are not right or wrong .

00:21:22
They're not good or bad in their essence.

00:21:26
It's what we do with our feelings.

00:21:28
So, again, if we only see anger as violence or verbal violence,

00:21:33
then yeah, you know that.

00:21:35
But that's how someone's channeling that their anger.

00:21:38
That's not their actual feelings of anger.

00:21:40
Um, so we really need to stop judging feelings.

00:21:44
Feelings are involuntary and they're there for a reason.

00:21:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, it's really um.

00:21:53
Well, obviously you work in the field so you know all about it.

00:21:57
But I have two kids, eight and nine, and they have a whole

00:22:06
range of feelings and it can be really hard right to not say

00:22:12
settle down, like stop crying, like all of those things, or

00:22:17
calm down or what's wrong with you.

00:22:19
I try to be quite aware of those things and like not

00:22:25
sending my kid to their room because they're behaving

00:22:28
inappropriately with what they're feeling, it's like we're

00:22:33
sort of trying to allow them that well, experience and not be

00:22:39
rejected, when it's happening right, right, because, yes, so

00:22:44
that's a good point.

00:22:45
Speaker 2: When a kid gets sent to their room for being angry,

00:22:49
we don't need to say that's shameful.

00:22:51
We're teaching them that's shameful, yeah, and they're

00:22:52
going to say that shameful.

00:22:53
We're teaching them that shameful, yeah, and they're

00:22:54
going to make that association and they're going to be the one

00:22:57
who come to me when they're an adult and go.

00:22:59
I'm not an angry person, but I just have panic attacks all the

00:23:04
time and I'll say, oh, my God, okay, so you are angry but

00:23:08
you're dissociating.

00:23:09
That's why you feel the panic.

00:23:11
But, um, that's why you feel the panic, but, um, so, yeah, so

00:23:17
what we?

00:23:17
What we need to do for one another, is a tune.

00:23:18
That's what we need to do and that's set.

00:23:20
And that starts like what I teach with my um in my parenting

00:23:24
classes is just saying you know , hey, johnny, you, you seem

00:23:29
really angry.

00:23:30
What, what do you think's going on?

00:23:32
You know, and then maybe Johnny's like well, you know, my

00:23:36
teacher made fun of me in front of the whole class.

00:23:38
And then you say, wow, I bet that was humiliating.

00:23:42
So you just name the feelings.

00:23:45
You're angry, that felt humiliating.

00:23:48
Um, you know, instead of dismissing, we name it, we

00:23:53
validate, and what that does is it diminishes their feelings,

00:23:58
their anger, those feelings diminish because what's

00:24:02
shareable is bearable.

00:24:04
So when our kids or anyone adult or child in our life, when we

00:24:09
can attune to them, when we can listen, when we can validate

00:24:13
their anger, um, they're actually feeling better because

00:24:17
they know we're sharing those feelings, those feelings are

00:24:19
being shared now, um, and that's actually how we do, like

00:24:24
de-escalation, that's what they teach people who are first

00:24:27
responders, who engage in de-escalation techniques is just

00:24:30
validating the people's feelings.

00:24:33
Speaker 1: It, it's, it's that simple wow, and and I think that

00:24:38
the kids can be our best teachers, if, if we uh choose to

00:24:43
learn from them, because they, they also ride out those

00:24:47
emotions right, they, they can be happy one minute, crying the

00:24:52
next, and then happy again the next minute, and then like I've

00:24:56
said to my daughter oh, ages ago I was like, oh sorry, I sorry,

00:25:00
I was, uh, you know, angry with you or you know, I blew up or

00:25:06
whatever it was.

00:25:06
And she'd be like when?

00:25:07
Because?

00:25:12
Because it's like it's done, it's over, and it's kind of like

00:25:16
, yeah, it's interesting.

00:25:17
Um, oh right, I'm just looking at my notes now.

00:25:24
So well, let's, let's stay with the, the children, for a minute

00:25:31
while we're there and talk about how we can raise truly

00:25:38
resilient children.

00:25:40
Speaker 2: I guess we've touched on that a bit, right.

00:25:42
Yeah, so you know, I think as adults, we, as parents, we put

00:25:49
way too much emphasis on words.

00:25:51
Like you know, I'll have people say ask me, how can I teach my

00:25:56
son that he matters or that he's important, like you know, how

00:26:02
can I phrase it?

00:26:02
And I'm like you don't need to say it, in fact you shouldn't

00:26:05
say it because that's not going to mean anything.

00:26:07
What you do is you, when he has a set of feelings which he will

00:26:12
like you're saying, when he has a set of feelings which he will

00:26:14
like you're saying, you show him his feelings matter by, like

00:26:18
, making eye contact, giving him your full attention and just

00:26:22
listening.

00:26:22
If he's willing to talk or if he's not willing to talk, you

00:26:25
just name.

00:26:26
Your face looks really sad right now.

00:26:29
You know, johnny, I'd like to hear what's happening.

00:26:33
Are you?

00:26:33
You know, tell me, are you feeling sad?

00:26:35
Are you feeling some other way?

00:26:37
So, just showing that we care, that's attunement, the eye

00:26:42
contact, the facial recognition, naming what we're seeing.

00:26:46
Oh, your shoulders are kind of slumped.

00:26:51
I'm noticing that.

00:26:51
You know.

00:26:52
You look kind of, you know, dejected.

00:26:54
Um, that that teaches our kids that they matter when we pay

00:26:59
attention to them and their feelings.

00:27:02
That's how they learn that they matter.

00:27:04
So us saying, hey, johnny, you matter to me, that doesn't do

00:27:09
anything, we have to do it.

00:27:10
You know, talk is cheap and we have to and that's how they they

00:27:15
realize they matter.

00:27:16
And we give them like this template where, even just doing

00:27:21
that every so often with them, it's this template for them and

00:27:25
their brain and they're like, oh , I matter, I matter to my mom

00:27:30
and I matter.

00:27:32
And then they go out into the world and they have like this,

00:27:37
this inner template that they matter and they're not going to

00:27:42
put up with the abusive boss because they matter, they're not

00:27:46
going to stay in the abusive relationship because they know

00:27:48
they matter.

00:27:49
So it's so powerful.

00:27:51
What just attuning to them, validating their feelings, you

00:27:57
know, does?

00:27:58
We have no idea, but we are absolutely creating resiliency

00:28:03
in them when we do that.

00:28:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wow, cool.

00:28:09
Sorry, I'm just going through my notes again.

00:28:12
I don't want to miss out on any , on any of the good stuff.

00:28:15
Um, do you?

00:28:16
I think you said that you work mostly with individuals.

00:28:20
Now do you work with children as as well, or more?

00:28:25
Speaker 2: adults, teens.

00:28:27
I do mainly work with teens, um , just because I do it remotely,

00:28:31
so children's usually in person with toys and puppets and okay

00:28:36
okay, yeah, um, how long have you been working in this field

00:28:40
of work?

00:28:42
um, about 10 years now, so it's my second career.

00:28:46
Uh, it took me falling into that depressive episode, um, but

00:28:51
yeah, it's, you know.

00:28:54
Again, I just want folks to know.

00:28:58
You know, if you're seeking out therapy, it might take a lot of

00:29:03
dating different therapists to find someone who can attune to

00:29:07
you.

00:29:07
I mean, they're horrible to me when I hear them about what

00:29:26
experience they've had with other therapists before they

00:29:28
came to me, where a lot of therapists will try to talk you

00:29:30
out of your feelings so they'll be very invalidating.

00:29:31
A lot of therapists have no idea what to do with anger and

00:29:34
so they teach, like teach anger management.

00:29:36
So let's just take some deep breaths and you know, count and

00:29:41
go for a walk and it's like, well, that can manage my

00:29:43
symptoms.

00:29:43
But let's get to the root, kind of like you were saying.

00:29:46
Like I'm an intense person, I want to get to the root.

00:29:49
Let's resolve the root problem so we don't have to waste time

00:29:53
managing symptoms.

00:29:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so I'm going to stick with that line of

00:30:00
inquiry that we're going with now.

00:30:02
I would like, I would be keen, to come back to the, the um, the

00:30:06
teens, um, just to hear some of your insights with with those

00:30:10
um, uh, that group of individuals.

00:30:15
You mentioned um in some of the materials I've read of yours

00:30:21
that where is it?

00:30:23
Um something about medication and that?

00:30:29
and I don't think I've got it here, yeah oh, here it is why

00:30:32
most types of therapies and medications don't work.

00:30:35
So let's talk about um, some some of those things like what,

00:30:41
what would what be traditional um therapies?

00:30:45
Why do people get medicated like and and some of those

00:30:50
things and and like why?

00:30:52
Why you believe they don't work ?

00:30:55
Speaker 2: well, I mean, they can work to manage symptoms, but

00:30:58
that's the best that, especially the drugs, that's.

00:31:01
All they're doing is managing symptoms.

00:31:03
So if that's what you want and you don't want to actually work

00:31:08
on the root problem, I mean they , I guess they could have their

00:31:10
place if your symptoms are out of control for a time, but

00:31:15
that's not a solution, you know, just managing the symptoms, so

00:31:19
yeah, yeah, let's get to the root.

00:31:22
Let's figure out what is going on and once we unroot it, once

00:31:27
we bring resolution, then you should be able to wean off those

00:31:31
meds.

00:31:32
Um, and I've had, you know, clients who were heavily

00:31:35
medicated for all kinds of things.

00:31:38
Just wean off all their meds.

00:31:39
It's really awesome.

00:31:40
So so, yes, there's, there's hope.

00:31:45
There's no need, in my belief, if we're getting to the root

00:31:49
problem, to stay perpetually on any medication.

00:31:54
As far as traditional or different therapies, you know

00:31:57
it's interesting.

00:31:58
Um, as far as traditional or different therapies, you know

00:32:02
it's interesting.

00:32:03
Um, they kind of present in graduate school.

00:32:05
Oh, there's all these different therapeutic modalities you can

00:32:09
pick from what you know and they're all equal, more or less.

00:32:11
You know, and they're not, and you know no one really.

00:32:15
Yeah, so it's hard because a lot of therapists you know we're

00:32:20
only given about two years of graduate school.

00:32:22
Psychologists have to get like a, they have to do a

00:32:25
dissertation, but I imagine they do the same amount of actual

00:32:29
classwork.

00:32:30
So you know, we'd like to say we're experts.

00:32:34
But you know, I remember too in grad school they say, oh,

00:32:38
you're going to learn as you go, and I'm like, well, can you

00:32:40
give me more than that?

00:32:41
I don't want to learn on these clients.

00:32:44
I don't want them to be my guinea pigs, and that's in

00:32:47
essence what they are, because we have to get, you know, 3000

00:32:50
hours to get licensed anyway as interns, but anyway.

00:32:55
So what I'm saying is there's not a lot of handholding for to

00:32:59
show you really what works as a therapist, and so people go to

00:33:03
different, you know, ideologies, different theoretical models.

00:33:08
Um, so some of the common ones right now one is called DBT,

00:33:12
which stands for dialectical behavioral therapy.

00:33:15
Um, it's I.

00:33:17
I'm sorry, I, I'm just gonna say I have found it absolutely

00:33:20
worthless.

00:33:20
Um, yeah, it's it.

00:33:23
They're like oh, it's evidence-based, short-term

00:33:26
whatever.

00:33:26
And I'm like, yeah, I actually did the research on that.

00:33:29
Very, very short term, if at all, and only in some

00:33:34
populations, does it show any improvement?

00:33:36
So what?

00:33:37
Speaker 1: that sorry before we go on.

00:33:38
Could we go on?

00:33:39
Could you give us an example of what that looks like in a

00:33:43
session?

00:33:44
Speaker 2: yeah, so sorry, yeah, no, no, so we call it dbt and

00:33:49
and so a lot of insurance, um, they'll send you to like a group

00:33:54
therapy and you're just doing dbt groups.

00:33:58
Um, hopefully this is going to change soon, but they're just

00:34:02
like okay, so when you have a difficult feeling, just imagine

00:34:07
there's a stop sign in your head , just say stop.

00:34:10
Just hold up a stop sign and it's like, wow, I'm all better.

00:34:14
Thank you, that was like you know.

00:34:16
So it's stuff like that or where.

00:34:17
Like if you feel, if you're having difficult feelings, go

00:34:21
into the freezer and hold a piece of ice until just focus on

00:34:25
the ice until you feel better.

00:34:28
And it's just like these things like that where I'm like well,

00:34:31
okay, and breathing and mindfulness, and those things

00:34:36
aren't bad in and of themselves, but are they really getting to

00:34:39
the resolution?

00:34:40
Oh no, they are definitely not getting giving anyone insight or

00:34:44
self-awareness to what is bothering them in the first

00:34:48
place.

00:34:48
And a lot of therapy treats the individual coming to therapy

00:34:54
like, oh, you're the problem, and so it looks at the problem

00:34:58
like it's intrapersonal, like as in Nadine, you're my client, so

00:35:03
the problem is within you.

00:35:06
But see, anger is always interpersonal.

00:35:10
It's never an intra problem, it's interpersonal and so unless

00:35:15
you have therapy that really looks at the relational aspect

00:35:20
of you, know what's going on and harming you and hurting you in

00:35:25
your mental health, your physical health, then it's not

00:35:28
going to do any good, because it's always relational, it is

00:35:32
always relational.

00:35:33
I can just say that flat out.

00:35:35
I can just say that flat out.

00:35:40
So if, if I'm telling you, you know, just think some positive

00:35:41
thoughts, nadine, and take some deep breaths, and you know, um,

00:35:44
you know, get a, get a Jasmine scented pillow for when you go

00:35:48
to sleep at night, like that's nice, but I could Google that,

00:35:52
like you could Google that and like you don't.

00:35:55
You need a person.

00:35:56
You need a person your therapist, hopefully to be a

00:36:01
person and to to listen and really understand, like, what is

00:36:07
going on and to really give you a framework, a paradigm for why

00:36:13
you're being affected the way you are by this relationship

00:36:16
that you're in.

00:36:17
And you need someone to help you have insight and

00:36:20
understanding, and without that it's just not going to work.

00:36:25
Speaker 1: Yeah right, because I guess, as you said, even with

00:36:29
the like, if someone's not being prescribed medication, if

00:36:34
they're being told strategies, you know like breathe through it

00:36:39
or hold the piece of ice, whatever it might be, that's

00:36:42
kind of like still looking at the symptom, right, it's like,

00:36:45
oh, I sense anger coming.

00:36:47
I'm just gonna do this for a minute.

00:36:50
Um, right, rather than what you're doing, which is guiding

00:36:56
your client to get down into that place that might be pretty

00:37:02
well hidden, I would expect, where the where the seed of the

00:37:07
anger comes from kind of yes and no, because people start

00:37:12
talking immediately about the relationships immediately in

00:37:16
therapy, but they don't really they need.

00:37:20
Speaker 2: So we're all blind to ourselves.

00:37:22
We are absolutely all blind to ourselves.

00:37:24
So we need another person to be a mirror, and that's what a

00:37:29
good therapist is.

00:37:30
They are a mirror giving you a true reflection of yourself.

00:37:35
Not, you know, people in our lives will mirror us, but they

00:37:40
will give us a distorted reflection, and so a good

00:37:43
therapist will give you a true reflection so you can start to

00:37:47
learn to trust yourself.

00:37:49
You can start learning.

00:37:50
Okay, I'm not crazy.

00:37:53
This person is gaslighting me.

00:37:55
Okay, I'm starting to connect with my anger.

00:37:58
Now I'm starting to learn about boundaries.

00:38:00
I'm starting to be assertive.

00:38:02
I'm going to channel this anger that I'm getting validated

00:38:06
right now into boundaries, into assertiveness, into

00:38:10
accountability Okay, cool.

00:38:20
Speaker 1: So if you've had some , you've been working with

00:38:22
people and sort of identified that these feelings of anger,

00:38:27
when they are internalised they can lead to disease, dis-ease

00:38:35
yes, physical and emotional depression, anxiety, bipolar

00:38:42
psychosis, but you also mentioned gastrointestinal

00:38:45
issues.

00:38:46
Um, what have you seen happen with the some of the people that

00:38:58
you've worked with when you have started to help them, to

00:39:06
validate their experience, channel their feelings?

00:39:12
Speaker 2: yeah, well, I can give you a lot of examples, but

00:39:15
one of my favorites is a gal I've been working with for maybe

00:39:20
a year and a half now, and she had severe psychosis.

00:39:25
And when I say that she's so, that can mean delusional

00:39:28
thoughts or hallucinations.

00:39:30
She didn't have delusions, she had hallucinations.

00:39:33
She had auditory, but I think more visual hallucinations, um,

00:39:40
auditory, but I think more visual hallucinations, um, and

00:39:42
she thought she was nuts.

00:39:43
I mean, she thought she was absolutely insane and I was just

00:39:45
like I think your mom's the insane.

00:39:48
One Sounds like she's evil and she's like oh, I think you might

00:39:51
be right, and she's like think you might be right, and she's

00:39:55
like.

00:39:55
I've been in therapy since I was like a young teen and you're

00:40:00
the first person who's actually like reflected the truth back

00:40:06
to me my mom is evil and I just needed someone else to see that

00:40:13
for me.

00:40:14
And so, anyway, she worked to completely extricate herself

00:40:15
from her mother, successfully, um, and she's had no psychosis,

00:40:23
she's had no anything, she's gotten off all her meds all her

00:40:26
meds yeah wow, yeah, do you see, um, that, like that's been a

00:40:33
pretty she's.

00:40:34
Speaker 1: You've both been pretty committed doing that for

00:40:37
a year and a half to get to the point that you're at now.

00:40:39
Do you do you, when you're working with someone and they've

00:40:43
, you know, reached this point, do you set them free or do they?

00:40:49
Yeah, does the relationship continue?

00:40:54
Speaker 2: I always, um, you know we'll check in with them,

00:40:57
but I, you know I'm here if you need me in a pinch, so you can

00:41:01
just reach out.

00:41:02
You know you're free to launch, but it's nice to know they

00:41:06
could always come back to me for like a check in if something

00:41:10
comes up.

00:41:11
You know that they weren't planning, because those things

00:41:13
do happen, yeah, yeah.

00:41:16
Speaker 1: This is on kind of a bit of a tangent, but not really

00:41:21
so.

00:41:21
The episode that I listened to of your podcast that I um about

00:41:25
halfway through it was the truth about love, health and freedom,

00:41:30
and you talked and the reason I wanted to talk to you about

00:41:33
this because you were talking about your own relationship with

00:41:36
your mum and almost what forgive me if I have

00:41:45
misinterpreted this or said it the wrong way but almost a

00:41:47
relief that you had when she passed away and that there was

00:41:53
some kind of you know, people were surprised at how you

00:41:56
expressed that.

00:41:57
So I guess you know, know, and then talking about this client

00:42:03
that you had who had a, you know , obviously had a dysfunctional

00:42:07
relationship with her mum and like needing to um, separate

00:42:12
herself from that, yes, yeah, in order to heal.

00:42:15
You're a mum.

00:42:17
So, like I think, and I'm a mum and I've got a daughter, have

00:42:24
you got a daughter or son?

00:42:26
Yeah, yeah, daughter, yeah, exactly.

00:42:32
So I don't know where this question is kind of going, but

00:42:35
hopefully you'll just pick up on what I'm trying to get at.

00:42:38
Had this questions kind of going, but hopefully you'll just

00:42:39
pick up on what what I'm trying to get at the relationship

00:42:41
between mother and daughter can be difficult yeah, I mean

00:42:49
absolutely, I mean mine, so I have a whole episode, not whole.

00:42:54
Speaker 2: A good chunk of one of mine is about my own very

00:42:58
difficult relationship with my daughter we're good now, okay,

00:43:02
but um, we, yeah.

00:43:03
So what is that one called?

00:43:05
Um?

00:43:05
It's called how to get over betrayal, a betrayal in the best

00:43:09
way, how to recover from betrayal this way, okay.

00:43:12
So, um, oh yeah, so yes, so I'll just say we all screw up

00:43:19
our children.

00:43:20
Speaker 1: We all do it's like we know that imprinting,

00:43:23
imprinting start is like from zero to seven, and it's not

00:43:27
until you're about year eight you go.

00:43:28
Oh shit, that's too.

00:43:31
I was too deep.

00:43:33
I was too deep in all of the things.

00:43:38
Speaker 2: No, we absolutely all screw up our children, and I am

00:43:42
, yeah.

00:43:43
So I'm very open about how I hurt my daughter and she felt

00:43:49
very betrayed by me.

00:43:51
So the same move that I mentioned earlier where I fell

00:43:54
into the depression.

00:43:55
She felt very abandoned by me because, you know, if you've

00:44:00
ever been in depression, it's like you've lost yourself.

00:44:03
And so she was five at the time and she knew her mom was still

00:44:08
alive physically, but there's no like smiles anymore, there's no

00:44:13
eye contact, there's just like I'm just like dead inside.

00:44:17
And also she'd gone through the same move as I had.

00:44:21
I think it was very difficult for her and I never asked her a

00:44:25
question, I never attuned to her , I never, you know, showed any

00:44:30
concern about, you know, her losing her friends and her

00:44:34
community and her dog, which was like her sibling, that she had

00:44:38
lost just before we moved.

00:44:39
So she felt very rejected and abandoned by me at that time and

00:44:44
she acted like she hated me.

00:44:46
I became like her enemy, um, for the next 14 years and it was

00:44:53
horrible.

00:44:53
And I it took until the last year, year and a half, two years

00:44:57
, that I even really understood where my rupture with her

00:45:04
happened and what my contribution was.

00:45:07
And so I've had to work very hard to win back her trust and

00:45:11
apologize and say you know what, edie, I know that you felt

00:45:18
absolutely rejected by me and I was in a depression.

00:45:22
I know you understand that now because you're an adult.

00:45:24
But I want to let little Edie know that she wasn't the problem

00:45:31
, that the rejection she felt wasn't an Edie problem, it was a

00:45:35
mom problem, and I just want you to know that and I'm so

00:45:40
sorry.

00:45:40
And you know we now have the best relationship I ever could

00:45:46
have asked for.

00:45:46
She's 20, but it took that and so, um, but then we have other

00:45:52
kinds of parents who won't ever admit they made a mistake, they

00:45:57
won't ever own their failures and of course we're going to

00:46:00
fail, we're going to fail all the time, and they won't do that

00:46:03
because they're not healthy enough, they're not

00:46:07
psychologically well or willing to do that, and so so I don't

00:46:12
want you know, I don't advocate that all my clients or my

00:46:16
listeners extricate themselves from their parents.

00:46:17
But if you have someone who you know, I don't advocate that all

00:46:18
my clients or my listeners extricate themselves from their

00:46:18
parents.

00:46:19
But if you have someone who you know, like my mother, who

00:46:24
actually, you know is the problem, is the problem for your

00:46:29
depression, your anxiety, because of just being, you know,

00:46:34
evil.

00:46:35
You know, I would say evil in a way where they're just

00:46:39
chronically rejecting you or mean or cruel, or saying or

00:46:44
doing cruel or mean things with the intent to hurt you.

00:46:48
Yeah, you have to separate yourself.

00:46:50
You absolutely do, because that's not a healthy parent, and

00:46:54
a healthy parent would want what's best for the child and

00:46:57
for the child to flourish at all costs, and so you have to do

00:47:02
that for yourself.

00:47:02
You have to be the healthy parent for yourself.

00:47:06
Speaker 1: Yeah that, um, so there's more uh, evidence I

00:47:18
think I'm like I haven't read any papers on it or anything to

00:47:23
sort of show that when we heal ourselves we can actually heal

00:47:26
our lineage backwards and forwards, because one would only

00:47:30
.

00:47:30
You can only assume that if you've had a parent who is evil,

00:47:34
as as you say you know, cruel, unattentive, that they've had

00:47:42
their own wounding and that they're sort of carrying that

00:47:45
down.

00:47:46
Yeah, how does that sit with you ?

00:47:51
Just in your own experience, like you've obviously come to

00:47:55
some deep realizations about the relationship you have with your

00:47:59
mom and some relief when she passed away.

00:48:02
Do you still feel like there's been a healing between that

00:48:08
relationship you have with her because you've kind of I don't

00:48:13
know healed yourself, or yeah, I do, um, you know, yeah, so um,

00:48:21
when I I'm doing better at age 53 now than I ever have in my

00:48:26
adult life you know, I myself had very severe insomnia for

00:48:30
about 30 years, off and on, but a lot of on during those 30

00:48:35
years.

00:48:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I attribute that to you know.

00:48:41
I think I was angry at myself and out of awareness of it,

00:48:46
because I was betraying myself by maintaining that or trying to

00:48:51
maintain a relationship with my parents.

00:48:52
So when I finally woke up and said you know what?

00:48:58
This is really wrong, and I'm okay to say that, like, um, this

00:49:07
is a revelation, this is you guys are evil and unless you

00:49:11
change, this is not going to work like having a relationship.

00:49:13
Change this is not going to work like having a relationship.

00:49:17
And the minute I was able to do that, I was able to sleep like

00:49:27
a baby.

00:49:27
I have been sleeping the last few years better than I ever

00:49:30
have in my life.

00:49:30
Like the insomnia for 30 years is a thing of the past.

00:49:33
So I really believe my body was angry at me for betraying

00:49:38
myself, overlooking, trying to kind of not see some things that

00:49:46
at some level I did see, right, right.

00:49:51
Speaker 1: Wow, thank you for that.

00:49:52
Yeah, insight.

00:49:54
So let's close up.

00:49:56
Like I still have a whole page full of things that we could

00:49:59
talk about, um, but if there is anything that you would kind of

00:50:04
recommend that people can do, or , um, if they are experienced,

00:50:10
if, if they are experiencing some of these things like how do

00:50:13
we start to work with our own anger, is it about creating

00:50:17
those, those boundaries?

00:50:19
Speaker 2: Um like yeah.

00:50:21
So I would say we start with healing our relationship with

00:50:26
our anger.

00:50:26
So, starting with you know what ?

00:50:29
My anger is here for a reason and it's here to help me.

00:50:33
It's here to inform me and give me wisdom.

00:50:37
I don't have to override it and I also don't have to explode.

00:50:42
I can just say I'm feeling kind of annoyed right now and I can

00:50:48
feel that.

00:50:48
I can feel that and I can know it's valid.

00:50:50
So we start with that and as we start to reconnect to our anger

00:50:56
and validate it for ourselves, I believe that's how we heal our

00:51:02
relationship with ourselves.

00:51:04
So I believe healing our relationship with anger is

00:51:07
healing our relationship with ourselves, like our inner child

00:51:10
I believe they're one in the same and as our inner child

00:51:14
starts to trust us because we're validating her, we're attuning

00:51:19
to her, we're advocating for her , with boundaries, with

00:51:23
assertiveness, with accountability.

00:51:24
You know we integrate and that's really the goal of good

00:51:28
therapy is.

00:51:29
Or, you know, just becoming a whole person is integrating and

00:51:35
um, and that's really what, when we know we've healed and, like

00:51:40
I said, now, at 53, I'm sleeping better than I ever have in my

00:51:43
life, but I'm also just happier.

00:51:45
I'm just happy all the time and I've been the opposite for a

00:51:50
long time.

00:51:51
So we, when you're whole, when you're integrated, you're not

00:51:54
perfect, but you're whole, you're complete, you're

00:51:56
integrated.

00:51:56
And you're not perfect, but you're whole, you're complete,

00:51:58
you're integrated, and and that is worth everything.

00:52:01
So we do that by being true to ourselves.

00:52:04
Speaker 1: Right, thank you, I really appreciate that.

00:52:06
Close, if our listeners want to find you best, best ways to do

00:52:12
that, would you want us to direct them?

00:52:14
Well, we can give them website podcast you want us to direct

00:52:22
them.

00:52:22
Speaker 2: Well, we can give them website podcast title of

00:52:23
your book.

00:52:23
Well, let's start with my podcast.

00:52:29
Yeah, that's why I have it.

00:52:30
It's for people who will never be my clients, just to get all

00:52:32
these things out to everyone else.

00:52:33
And it's called Angry at the Right Things and it's found

00:52:36
wherever you subscribe to your podcast.

00:52:38
Speaker 1: Yeah right, we'll put a link to that in the notes and

00:52:42
yeah, it's a great listen, so I'll be tapping into that myself

00:52:45
.

00:52:45
Thank you so much for joining us, bronnie.

00:52:48
Thank you, nadine have a great rest of your day and, yeah, I

00:52:54
appreciate the time you've taken with us today.

00:52:56
Thanks a lot, yes.