The Midlife Wake-Up Call Leaders Face

Agency Over Work And Life

I think, I mean you you're right. I think family, my my family of origin, some extended family, thought we were crazy. Probably still do think we're crazy. Um I I I had a coach. Um I still have a coach. I had a good coach that helped me sort of understand that uh that that I I have agency over how much of my life I give to work to pay the rent and how much of my life I give to work because I love it.

Welcome To Midlife Rebel

Welcome to the Midlife Rebel Podcast. It's time to rewrite the midlife story for women who refuse to be put in a box. Because maybe midlife isn't a crisis. Maybe it's an awakening. Just in terms of like us and our conversation today, what I'm really keen, well, I'm keen to hear about all of your work because I haven't spoken to any guests about internal family systems. So I'm really interested in um hearing about that. And also obviously, this idea of authenticity, authentic leadership, like those key words, especially for for people in midlife. You know, we're we've got those questions coming up of who am I, what's my

Kurt’s Career And The Pivot

purpose? What is this all about? Like these things start to bubble to the surface, and and what we've been doing for the first half doesn't really seem to make as much sense anymore. And there's that key word alignment that comes up as well. But I'd love to start actually with your story because you mentioned in our first contact that you changed your path around age 40. And we don't I don't talk to many men about this. I'm not being um sexist or anything, it's just the way things are. Um so I'd love to hear your I'd love to hear a little bit about your experience and like what happened as you started to enter that kind of midlife period.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for asking. Uh I'll I'll keep it as brief as I can.

Uh don't you don't have to.

Okay, great. Uh buckle up. I hope you packed a lunch today. Uh I can be a talker, so you can always cut me short. Um, so I spent the first, I don't know, 10 years of my career working in a manufacturing plant. Um, I did some production supervision. I did HR, I did labor recruiting and benefits administration and all that kind of fun stuff. Loved it. Ended up going to seminary in my early 30s, uh, went to get my master's degree in my early 30s. Uh, and then I started pastoring a couple churches. I pastored one church for uh just a couple of years, moved across the state that I live in, and uh joined another pastoral staff where we launched a new campus. We like birthed a new campus out of an old one in January of 2020. I don't know if you remember January of 2020 or 2020, period.

Yep.

It was wild. Um there was so much going on, and and quickly the the idea that, hey, we're gonna launch this new thing kind of turned into, okay, now I in my pastoral capacity had to learn how to like help my leaders navigate their own anxiety and become aware of who they wanted to be and how they were gonna get there and how they were gonna keep leading in the midst of you know a pandemic and there was some other internal things going on. There was lots of things that were kind of getting in the way. Um, I don't want to go back for anything, but that season taught me that I loved that work. Uh, you know, le leading a church, uh, I was on a big staff, but the campus that I led was mostly volunteers. And and most pastors lead volunteers, and and that's just a a unique way, a unique leadership uh view is to lead a volunteer. Um, I learned that I loved uh helping them get clear on how they wanted to show up and then help them take steps. I I no one likes getting yelled at, but when somebody would walk into my office and and like lose their mind, you know, like I loved the challenge of like, how do I get them to walk out of here curious? You know, like how do I help them walk out of here and realize that maybe the sky's not falling and that maybe we can continue to lead together, that sort of thing. Uh so what happened is as the as the campus that I was leading was growing, uh the culture was taking, the leaders were coaching each other, and I was getting to do less of that coaching because it was just an overall healthier campus. Uh and I realized about 2024 that I wanted to do more coaching. Uh, that I just I missed it. I needed to start being more of an organizational leader. And Nadine, I'm I'm not lying, I don't, I do not like that work. Um, it does not give me energy, it does not give me joy, it it sucks joy out of out of my work. Uh so as I turned 40, I also decided that I needed to make a change and and chase some of that joy. Uh I needed it to give more of my energy to the things that brought me joy. So I stepped away from my pastoral uh role and launched a coaching practice with one of my good friends because it just brings me so much joy to do the work that we're doing today.

Wow. This is uh something that so many people feel, I think, at this age of life. But having the the confidence to make a huge change like that, that sounds like a big shift.

Risk Support And Family Reactions

Um, stepping out of any role and moving into something brand spanking new. I feel like for many of us, especially in midlife, we're in relationships, we've got families, you know. What was your circumstance with that and how did you navigate it? Obviously, having support helps.

Yeah, yeah. I I mean, truthfully, like I I don't want to be flippant. I understand that some people, when they turn 40, just can't do what I did. And I I think the nuts and bolts of it were, you know, in reality, when I went to seminary late in life, we had already made a bunch of life changes that like aligned our life to be able to then make a change at 40. Uh, you know, going back to grad school in in your 30s means like we ate a lot of ramen noodles, if if you know what I'm saying, you're picking up what I'm putting down. So we were kind of set up as a family. I have a wife and a couple kids. Um, we we were set up to take a little more risk uh because of some earlier decisions and kind of nuts and bolts things. Uh I think, I mean, you you're right. I think family, my my family of origin, some extended family, thought we were crazy. Probably still do think we're crazy. Um, I I I had a coach, um, I still have a coach, I had a good coach that helped me sort of understand that uh that that I have agency over how much of my life I give to work to pay the rent and how much of my life I give to work because I love it. Um and and it sounds crazy, but it was my late 30s before I realized I have control over this, right? Like I think this is sort of a programming thing where we just we get a job, we go through life, and we don't even think about what we're doing and how it aligns with who we want to be. So I I do think there's probably a sense of like, this guy's crazy. Like where's the retirement plan? Where's the security? Where's the stability? Um, and maybe it is crazy. You know, maybe it is. And I think at the end of the day, um I think at the end of the day, what where I came to was I knew my time in that pastoral role was coming to an end one way or another because of the organizational shift. Um, I what I knew was it didn't feel it didn't feel genuine to take on another pastoral role, knowing that wasn't where my heart was. Right. Uh so it wasn't necessarily uh a force of a hand, but the timing of it, like it just I couldn't in good faith go to another church and say, Yeah, I'm gonna be your pastor, but in in three or four years, I'm just gonna leave and go start my own business, you know. I just couldn't do that knowing that's not where my heart was. So those things all kind of came together, and I'm sure, I'm sure maybe I'm a little crazy, and that's okay. Uh, but but I want to get to the end uh of you know this season or this chapter or whatever it is, and be able to say, like, I did I did what I thought was best, and I I I I sought those things that bring most life and most joy.

And that no doubt has shaped the way that you coach others as well. Um did the people that you coach, sorry, I might kind of toggle between a couple things as they pop up, but do the people you coach are they in similar circumstances where they are looking to move out of roles that they're currently in into something that's more aligned, that gives them joy, or are they trying to find more joy in the things that they're currently doing?

Yeah, that's a great question. I love how you frame it. I would say yes.

Which bit?

I would say I would say uh yes to both. Okay. Um I I we do have some clients that that are that are saying, I just I don't know if what I'm doing is the right fit. And I need to understand what a good fit or good alignment would be. Um and and we've had clients before that say, I think it might be time to move on to something different. And they get into coaching and they say, you know what, I don't, I don't think it is anymore. You know, like that that is a thing that happens too, where an understanding of alignment actually might might illuminate, like, hey, I'm maybe I am in the right place. Uh, but but I would say we do have a healthy amount of people who just feel stuck where they are, uh, feel

Who Coaching Helps In Transition

stuck in sort of getting the same results in their life they've always gotten. Um, and and and we we usually will say, you know, if you want different results, you have to try a different input, you have to try a different process. Uh so a lot of our work is sort of like how do we find joy where you are? Um and if that if that doesn't do it, we can always kind of go the other direction as well. Um so so the work we do is largely based on self-awareness. Yes, and largely based on helping people understand how they're showing up and and why they're showing up. And and like there's a lot we could talk about uh with that. But what we do find is that people in transition are often more ready to do that work.

Okay.

Uh whether that's transition of like career transition or transition into empty nest where your kids are kind of going away, or transition like, hey, I just had a baby, you know, whatever it is. We do find that the transition is often where people find this idea of like something doesn't feel right anymore. You know, something feels off, and I need to figure out what that is. And yeah, so so I I do think we run into a lot of people that are just more ready and willing when when something starts to feel off and transition.

Yeah, definitely. I I have been studying astrology, and although it's very different to what you do, there are so many similarities because it's a tool that people can use to kind of observe what's going on, to bring self-awareness to their experience and to help to explain it. But often it's when those challenges arise that people want to want the answers. It's like what's going on, and they're turning to to different modalities. Can you take us on a bit of a journey for someone who comes to you? So, like where like where are they at? How do they find you? How do they make the decision that it's even a thing that they need support from someone like you?

Yeah, um, I would love to take you on a journey. I like the way you frame that. As a storyteller, let's go on a journey. Right. Uh yeah. So so most of the most of the stories our clients would tell would would start something uh along the lines of I'm exhausted and I don't know how to make a different. Um, or I'm overwhelmed and I don't know how to not be overwhelmed. Um today, as it sits, most of our clients are either sort of entrepreneur small business people, um, or they are some sort of nonprofit leader. Um, whether that's we have some kind of faith-based uh leaders, but then we also have some sort of nonprofit secular leaders as well. Uh, but but the common thread there is that those are often people who just don't have the resources that other sort of corporate leaders might have. And they know I can't keep going like

Noticing Misalignment Through Regret

this. Uh, so it's the small business owner who's getting yelled at by customers every day. It's the coffee shop owner who is getting the customer that says, You made my mocha wrong again uh every day. And what they're saying when they come to us is I don't know what's going on, but I can't keep going this way. They want their business to go for years and years and years, but they don't know how to make that sustainable. But they know what they're doing isn't isn't sustainable. Um then we begin uh uh we we begin by helping people kind of understand where those misalignments might be. Um our posture is uh one that we like to say uh is is gentle. Uh we try to be invitational and gentle all at the same time. And we begin by helping people uh discover places where they feel regret or remorse. Um and and those are strong, those are probably stronger than we want to use, but um that that's moments like, you know, I left a meeting and I lashed out, or I had a hard conversation and I got defensive, or I was in a board meeting and I didn't speak up. Um but then you leave those and you say, Man, I wish that would have gone differently. Uh those are moments that we invite people to notice because those are sort of like giant indicator lights to say something is amiss here. There's something misaligned where the way we wanted to be present was different than than we actually were. So that's sort of the basis in the beginning, and then we kind of take a journey into some frameworks of uh protection and some nervous system work and that sort of thing.

Okay. So how does someone find you? They go that they they they know that there's something off, you know, things just and they're they're feeling exhausted and and so on. But how do they then go? I need to Google, is it word of mouth? Because you live in quite a small place. Are you working with people online? I'm just curious, like how someone comes to that decision. Is it like they've tried everything else?

Yeah, that's a good well, that's a good question, indeed. And uh if you have any marketing experience, we should talk a great conversation. Um, yeah, I I here's how it's working today. Uh most of it is word of mouth.

Yeah.

Um, we we have a we have a website that we direct people to, but I mean, as you know, like the internet's a weird, wild place, and how do you find anything anywhere anymore? But um, yeah, so so my business partner and I, having sort of a pastoral background, we have quite a large network of people.

Yeah.

Um, and uh we we've worked with a number of people before that kind of uh that know how we pastored and how we've coached in the past. Um that that's kind of how we're doing it uh right now. I mean, I think obviously we would like to expand that, but um, it turns out marketing is not in our back pocket.

Well, how many people have I heard say that?

Really?

Oh yeah, no one likes it unless you're a marketer.

I know.

Okay, so so thanks for that. I was just curious because you know, we're going on that journey. It's like I just I guess it was more well, as much about like that feeling that someone has. Like uh I've spoken to other people and it's like they're just yeah, they feel like something's off. You've described that, but it's almost like they've tried everything else, you know. They might have gone to a counselor, they might have tried a um, you know, different things within their business. And I kind of I guess part of that question was just to for the listeners to identify those experiences and what they might be having and how they might be seeking someone out.

Yeah, yeah. Can I give you a real story? Yeah, great. Yeah, so so I have a client, um, we'll call him Steve. Uh Steve, Steve's my go-to. I don't know why. Steve's the first name that always pops up. His name is now Steve. Uh Steve came to me and he he works uh in a local municipality. He's a he's a city employee, and uh he's new to his job. Within the last six months, he's new to his job, and he's inherited a bit of a mess. Um, he's got employees uh who kind of all have a different standard of what's okay for like work hours and all this kind of thing. And and that happens in small towns, especially here in the Midwest of the US,

How Clients Find The Practice

where everybody kind of wants to like help each other out. And what you end up with is 15 people that have different work hours. Well, Steve is now in the middle where uh people above him are saying, You got to get this straightened out. Like you have to get all these people working on a regular schedule. And then the people that he is gonna have to do that with is saying, Steve, come on, man, like we need these, like this is really helpful for us. And Steve is honestly like he would he would be mad if I used this. He's kind of a sweetheart. Like he's kind of a he's just a nice guy. And at the end of the day, Steve just wants to make everybody happy, right? And Steve knows he can't make everybody happy. Um, and and like we looking from the outside are like, well, obviously you can't make everybody happy, but in the moment, like in that leadership role, Steve's sort of past and Steve's uh protection mechanisms are saying the safest way forward is for me to keep everybody happy. Well, that that is impossible. Uh, but he's gonna do everything he can to make it happen, even if it means exhausting himself and burning himself out and and maybe even not leading well, right? Not doing the things that he's supposed to do. So Steve came to us and said, I know I have to like be the bad guy or or like do things that are hard, you know. Like he came saying, I know I have to do it, I just don't know how to

Steve’s Leadership Pressure Cooker

do it. Um, and and we are not, you know, we're not uh John Maxwell, we're not leadership gurus that say, okay, do these things. But what we do with Steve is to be able to say, okay, Steve, like why, why is it hard to think about disappointing somebody? You know, like what why is it hard to think that that one of your employees is going to be uh upset with you? And we can unlock those things so that then he can lean into those things uh from a place of authenticity and wholeness and and do the job as best as best he can.

Well, that's a almost a um different thing, isn't it, to what we were talking about, where people have been doing something for a long time and they feel misaligned. He's been accepted into a new role in the past six months. And so probably like it feels like Harry interviewed even and how he's actually got a fixing things up, might not be quite the same person that was accepted for the job. So that's yeah, that's gonna um mix things up a bit. So there's this whole idea of self-awareness and bringing people's attention to like what's what's actually going on here. Um how do you oh god, there's so many things in there. Let's just go straight to internal family systems because as I said, I haven't spoken to anyone about this before, and I've I'm a familiar with it. Um, but how do you use that in your coaching practice? Does it come in straight away or is it um person to person?

It's person to person. Uh, you know, it it I would say this, Nadine, it it influences all the coaching we do from a coaching standpoint. Like we we can't separate our understanding of it from the work we do. Uh we have some clients that are a little more willing to actually like jump in and use the language. Uh for for some, it it's maybe just not uh it's not always the right time or place, or or the the self-awareness is at a level where we need to do some pre-work before we jump into the IFS stuff. Uh, but but we really do love

Why Internal Family Systems Fits

we we love the work that we do with it. We love the way that it influences the way we uh think about uh the way we behave and show up. Yeah, we just we just love the work so much.

Can you describe it for us, please?

Yes, yes, thanks for asking. Uh here's how I think about uh internal family systems theory. And and I should be clear for the listeners, this is not my theory. This is uh a theory that's much bigger than uh Kurt and Brimstone Coaching Group. But uh it here's the theory. We are one self, right? We we have one self, one human being, but inside of every one of ourselves uh is a series of parts. And those parts can be looked at literally like an internal family. Literally, like these internal parts are siblings. And those internal parts all are trying to do something. They're all trying to keep us safe. They're all trying to bring about what's

Parts Firefighters Managers And Exiles

best for us. And somewhere along the lines, what we believe about internal family systems theory is that some of those parts will be received well by us and we'll hear them and we'll listen to them and we'll take their advice and their leading. Other parts we say, uh-uh, I don't need you, and we exile those parts. And just like you can imagine with a sibling or with a child, maybe even when we push something away, it is going to try to find a way to come back up. So then what we do is we create firefighters and managers, and those firefighters and managers try to ensure that the right quote, I mean these air quotes, the right parts come up at the right time. Uh, and and our work then is to try to figure out and help kind of dissect with people how are we viewing the parts? Are there parts that need more attention? Are there parts that can take a rest? Are there parts that are overworked? Uh, and so on and so forth. And and that sort of then helps us understand why we do what we do.

So do we have do we all have different internal families or are there particular archetypes? You mentioned the firefighter and the manager.

The manager, yep.

Are there other archetypes in there or character characters, or do we all have our own brothers and sisters, siblings?

Yeah, it sounds it sounds weird when we say it out loud, doesn't it? But I love it.

Um I think we all know that we've got them.

I think so too. I think so too. That's what I say all the time. Like, we know we've got this. Let's get over the weird.

We know we've got it. Yeah.

Uh I I do think uh firefighter manager are sort of a general where uh these are all parts that uh that do different things in each of us. The firefighters are like jumping into action when we need protection in the moment. Um, that for you and you and me, our firefighters are gonna do different things, right? Uh, but the same principle applies. The firefighter is there, but it manifests differently. Uh, the manager is like the one keeping us safe. This is the the one that says, hey, put your put your padded helmet on so that you don't get hurt, right? Mitigating risk. Um, again, you and I are gonna have uh managers doing different things, but we each have a manager. Uh, but but then the other parts um we like to think of as uh like like the emotions, the anger is a part, sadness is a part. Um, yeah. So so I I think the the sort of model is the same in all of us, how it manifests is gonna look very different for each of us.

Can you give some examples of how um a firefighter and a manager might play out for someone?

Yes. Uh so I'll sp I'll tell you about about how my firefighter uh does this because I know my firefighter really well. Uh so one of the things that I learned early on in my life was that it's dangerous to stand out, and and dangerous meaning like somebody who stands out is gonna get ridiculed or made fun of, which is probably why I've got a bunch of tattoos. There's all kinds of things there, right? All sorts of stories there. But um my firefighter, when when I feel like I'm starting to stand out, my firefighter will get into action and say, no, no,

Red Sneakers As A Real Example

don't stand out, hide, right? Run away. Um, so that can look for me like self-deprecating. So if I'm in a meeting and if I say something or give an opinion that might be different than the group, I I might say something like, Well, but I don't really know a lot about that. Or I might say something like, but don't take my word for it, right? Then that firefighter is like making me blend in. Uh my manager is a little different. Um, I'm a sneaker head, Nadine. I like shoes a lot. I love shoes. I I have a pair of red sneakers in my closet, like blood red. They are full-on red and I love them. But every time I go to grab them, my manager says, Are you sure about that? Are you sure about that? You're gonna stand out like everybody. You can't not see these shoes, they are red. And my manager says, I don't think you want to wear those because you're gonna stand out. So the manager is keeping me safe ahead of time. The firefighter is getting into action when it feels like the dangerous present. Yeah, okay.

And what is the problem with this? What happens when they are uh I I mean, I guess they get out of control or they they exile the other parts. What yeah, what how does that work?

I love the question, Nadine. I'm so glad you're asked. Sorry, I'm over here. I'm like, yes, thanks for asking that question. Um, so he here's the here's the problem. The firefighter doesn't know if the threat is real, right? The firefighter thinks the threat is real, uh, but whether it is or not, the firefighter is getting into action. Um, so so that that firefighter will disrupt how I think I want to be uh to keep me safe, which which I do want to be really clear. Like the firefighter keeping us safe, like that's not a bad thing. The the the parts the parts all want what's best for me and for you. And that makes them all worth listening to, right? Uh, but but in my example of being in a meeting where I share my opinion and I stand out, um, the firefighter doesn't know who's around that table with me and doesn't know the threat of if they're really going to like ridicule me or tell me I'm dumb or whatever. The firefighter just knows it's dangerous. I'm gonna prevent it. So then the firefighter is actually keeping me from like showing up fully, right? Uh the the manager, same thing with the manager, the problem isn't that it's trying to keep me safe. The problem is the manager doesn't know where I'm going in my red shoes, right? I might be going just to hang out with my best friend who would never think about laughing at my red shoes, right? Uh so so that's the problem is they don't they don't know the difference. They're just trying to keep me safe. Uh and and and it derails my own personal thinking of the situation.

Okay. So what what do we what might happen, I guess, like in everyday life for someone who comes to you, you're using that, you know, they're feeling misaligned, they're not being authentic, these things are showing up for them, and you're working with internal family systems. Is it like a is it that kind of um fight, flight, freeze? Do they feel stuck? Um like how do we start to undo that and witness these energies for what they are and like go out in the red shoes?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um great question. Gosh, you're really good at asking questions, Nadine. Uh so so here here's I want to give a simple answer, then I want to give an example. Um IFS would say that that we we can literally talk to the parts and say, firefighter, thank you. Like, thank you for trying to keep me safe. I actually don't need you right now. Why don't you take a break? Um, and I I think that's really beautiful. Um, again, that's where some people are like, that's really weird. But I think it's beautiful to think, hey, thank you for doing what you're doing. I appreciate that you're trying to keep me safe. I actually don't need it right now, right? Uh don't leave, but take a break, you know. Um, have have

Talking To Parts And Inside Out

you seen the movie Inside Out or Inside Out 2?

I'm familiar with it. My kids have watched it. Yeah.

Okay. You need to watch both of them because they're amazing. So Inside Out and Inside Out 2 are internal family systems 101. Like they are literally based on internal family systems. And there's a scene in the second one. Uh, one of the characters in the second one is anxiety. And anxiety gets to that control board, you know, where the the parts are running the running the ship, if you will. And anxiety is like going crazy. So then the main character in the movie is also going crazy, just having having struggles all over the place. And anxiety just goes and goes and goes. Um, joy, one of the other parts in the in the movie, uh, comes up to anxiety. Again, these are all characters, uh, and literally pulls anxiety away from this control board. And anxiety looks at joy and says, I was just trying to help. Like has this kind of tearful look in her eye, like, I was just trying to help. Uh, so so I I love that example to say um the the parts are doing the best they can. They are doing what they know how to do. And we do get to have a uh conversation to say, I see it, I appreciate it. Why don't you take a step away from the control board? And I'm gonna I'm gonna let another I'm gonna let another emotion here uh take a turn, and I'm going to uh try on a different way of being.

It's quite a practical way of trying to dissect what's going on, isn't it, internally? Because we all have these internal dialogues going on. Um, and I guess that first step is bringing awareness to them and like determining like what is actually going on and is it real? Is it make is it you know something we've created to keep us safe? Yeah, is it with anxiety? Like a lot of people are experiencing that, and I know you've used that you just use that as an example. Is it as simple as bringing our awareness to something like anxiety and and naming it and acknowledging it and thanking it for its role, but then kind of quieting it down? Like I've picked a big one. I know.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I let me let me start by saying I'm I'm not a I'm not a licensed therapist or a clinical psychologist, and I I don't want to under, I don't want to underestimate the the the heaviness of anxiety. So so I I certainly would say that there are um moments of anxiety or feelings or experiences of anxiety that are beyond anything that we as coaches can help people navigate. Um I I do think there are times where we feel anxiety that we can navigate. Um but again, I don't, I don't wanna I don't want to say to you or your listeners like, yeah, we just we'll try harder and anxiety goes away. I I don't think that's the case. Um we we actually define anxiety like this. We we would define it by saying that anxiety is an intense emotional response to a real or perceived threat.

Yeah.

So um so so I mean, and we would say there's two kinds. There's an acute anxiety where like the threat is right in front of us and real. Um, but then there's this chronic anxiety, again, with the red shoes, that that that sort of intense emotional response, it feels real to me in the moment when I grab those red shoes, but it's actually grounded somewhere in the past.

Yeah.

Uh and and I so I think that I I think we can do some work to understand um you know where that threat comes from and and if that threat is real. Um, but I I would also

Anxiety As Real Or Perceived Threat

tread really carefully and say that I think that there are feelings of anxiety that that are beyond just sort of a self-aware, right? Yeah, yeah.

And we we can, I guess if you're not in that kind of extreme energy of anxiety where it's sort of, you know, for a lot for many people, it it's right almost running their lives, like it's there all the time. We can have those experiences, putting on the red shoes. I resonated with what you said, you know, that just that those moments of me before starting something new, interviewing someone on on the the podcast that I don't know very much about, you know, that kind of energy in that moment. What if I can't do it? Um, but then there's yeah, an ability to sort of bring awareness to that and go, it's okay, nothing's happened, I'm safe.

Yeah, so it's yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that idea.

Yeah, yeah, thank you. All right. Let's so we've kind of determined that this is a really great tool to to just start to bring words and awareness to the stuff that's going on internally. What let's talk about uh where it comes from. Where does this stuff originate?

Yeah. Uh so uh we we like to use the phrase little tea trauma.

Yeah.

Um so I'm I'm sure you understand what little T trauma is. Um we again, as uh as coaches and not therapists, we we stay out of the big T trauma lane that requires a professional that that we are not. Uh but but I I would say that every one of us has little T trauma. Um and little T trauma, we we would define it just so we're on the same page, is like those moments in our first formation, which could be you know

Little T Trauma And The FRAM Story

infant to 18, uh that those little tea trauma moments are moments where we uh subconsciously learn that something is not safe, um, or learn that something is risky, uh that we might not even know at the time are are creating a wound or creating uh you know way of seeing the world, but but that they are and and it will show up later in life. Um so here's a real example, Nadine. I uh when I was in third grade, I was in a spelling bee. I don't know, does Australia or the UK have spelling bees?

I know what they are, yeah. I mean, I didn't ever do one, but I know, yes, definitely familiar with with the idea, yeah.

Yeah, so I was a killer speller. I not to flex on everybody, but I still don't use spell check, Nadine.

So uh I'm pretty good with spelling too.

Look at us. Look at us. Love it. Uh so in in third grade, I was I was uh one of three remaining kids in a spelling bee of about a hundred kids just in my local school. And uh I I stepped up to the microphone, I got my word. The word was farm, which is a crazy easy word for third grade. Anyway, it was the 90s and who cares. But uh I I stepped up to the mic and I said farm, F-R-A-M, right? Uh that's not how you spell farm. Uh so I remember you you hear the bell, the moderator rings a bell, that means it was wrong. I went to sit down in my seat and like classmates are laughing at me, right? Um, even today, I bet if I go home for the holidays to my family of origin, one of them is gonna like make an FRAM joke, which which is fine. Uh, that was not a big tea trauma moment, but I after after a lot of work with with a coach and a and a therapist, uh, I know that that was a little tea moment where I learned that looking incompetent or making a mistake like that where I didn't look intelligent was not safe. Uh so so that then created in me all sorts of patterns of behavior that when when it feels unsafe like that, I get in protection mode uh and I do all the things I need to do to stay safe, which is really great in third grade, right? Third grade curtain needed it because third graders can be mean, you know? Uh maybe even high school kids can be mean. So so those protections are good in the moment. The problem is they just hang on forever. Again, our parts don't know that it's safe. Uh, we we just learn how to how to be and we learn how to protect. And the real problem is the behaviors that it creates. And I think that's the answer to your question. I think most of those protections, most of those points of inauth authenticity are coming from a real protection that was really needed from a little T trauma, but probably isn't needed anymore.

That brings us back to that word authenticity. And how, yeah, so I'm kind of curious. We've gone we've you've taken us through, you know, this this process um where we're bringing awareness to those inner parts, naming them, identifying whether they're true for us or not. I guess that's a part of the authenticity thing. But how does that then yeah, how does it link back to um that authenticity thing? Like who how do we figure out what's real and what's not?

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's uh million dollar question, Nadine. Um well, I mean, I guess my my first answer would be I I think I think that

Authenticity As Chosen Alignment

changes all the time. I I think uh I have a good friend who will say some say that we live life in chapters, you know, that that one chapter comes to an end, another begins. And I think the the sort of real and true probably looks different from chapter to chapter. Uh but but here's what I would say about authenticity, knowing that sometimes authenticity changes and we morph and we grow and we learn. And yeah, I sure hope that I'm maturing and transforming uh over the course of my adult life. Um we we think about authenticity as being aligned with who and how we want to be. Um now that goes hand in hand with self-awareness because when we start to become self-aware of who and how we are, then we can start to do some work to decide if that's what we prefer. Um if if I start to become self-aware and start to realize that I defend myself in times of you know challenge or conflict, um, I that isn't necessarily who I want to be or who I am, but it is who it is who I am today. It doesn't mean it's who I truly am, if that makes sense. I know I'm saying that kind of in a nuanced way, but um, once that self-awareness works work begins, we can start to choose. Here's how I want to be, even if it's not who I am today, here's who I want to be. And then authenticity is taking steps to make that thing come to be, that that alignment between how we live and who we want to be. That that's how we think about authenticity.

That's different, I think, from uh, and I guess there's there's a a need to discern that because there's you know goals and desires, and and especially when you're working with people who are entrepreneurs and leaders, like yeah, discerning the difference between that being who you are and choosing the direction you want to go in.

Yeah.

But that's not the same as having a goal, is it? Is it?

Well, may maybe I I love that question. Let's parse it out a little bit. I can I give a an asterisk here, can I like put a caveat?

Yes.

Um when when I think about goals or when I think about like who I want to be, or like uh success or whatever, you know, however we want to frame that, I I I really try to think about what we would call inputs, the things that I can control. Um, you know, like if I'm if if I'm thinking about my posture and how I show up in hard conversations or when I feel a challenge or a conflict, if my goal is, well, I want conflict to be resolved, well, I can't really control that, right? Like I can't really control if somebody else feels like a conflict is resolved. I can control how I show up in it and say that I'm going to listen. I'm going to clean up a mess if I've made a mess in a conflict. Um, so then I think we can measure those things. Or from an entrepreneurial standpoint, um, uh we have a we have a client who owns a coffee shop, and you know, she can't really control how many people come to her coffee shop, right? Like obviously measuring those things are important, like from a business standpoint. You have to measure those things, but she she can't really control that. She can control um what does she do when she feels like people aren't walking through her door? Yeah. You know, she can control how does she respond when somebody's unhappy with her coffee. Um so I I think that's I mean, back to your original question, like I think that's the I think that's the place of most fruit because it's the place of most control. Uh, then then I think that leads to a sort of I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling, but I think it does lead to a sense of um, you know, leading to who we want to be and leading to how we want to be, even if we don't see the steps in front of us. I don't know. Does any of that make sense?

I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that was a weird journey. I don't know if any of that makes sense. I know.

Well, it was an awkward question. Um what so let's go back to our journey. So you've had we've had our person at the beginning of this journey where um they've come to you, Kurt, I I feel misaligned, you know, I'm frustrated, I don't, I'm unhappy, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I'm not showing up in the way that I want to show up. You've gone through this process of bringing awareness to why those things might be happening. What are some of the things that might be the outcome of this journey? Like, do they quit their job, change their relationships, um step up into a new role? Like what what goes on for them? What are the what are the insights and yeah, things that show up?

Yeah, that's a great question. I I wish I had these like amazing, uh like this person got this raise, and this I wish I had those. I ultimately though, I I think what we see is a much more subtle, uh, a much more subtle result because we are we are asking people. Well, here's here's a question we love to ask. We love to ask, what what are you contributing to the situation? Uh, you know, so Steve, the the employee that has, you know, people that he wants to keep happy, you know, the question is like, Steve, what are you contributing to the situation? Meaning, what can you own? What can you control? What can you work on? And I I I

Subtle Wins And Better Home Life

think long term, what we're hoping for, and what we what we see is that Steve is going to metaphorically kick the dog less. Um, we we love dogs. We would never advocate for anybody kicking the dog. But what we what we see for fruit and results is Steve can go home at the end of the day and he's not bringing anything with him, right? He can go home at the end of the day and he can look back at the day or the week and feel good about how he showed up. Maybe, maybe it leads to something else down the road, maybe it leads to a promotion, but we we are most concerned with Steve being able to go home and be Steve. Um, you know, enjoy the things he enjoys, uh, be present in the places that he's present, not feel like he has to answer 15 emails at home because he's behind. Uh, those are the sort of tangible things. Like, let's not kick the dog, Steve. Like, let's and he's not. Steve would never kick his dog, but uh, you know, that that's the fruit. I I don't know that I have a lot of success stories that lead to like huge promotions, but but I do have success stories that lead to people like Steve saying, I got to the end of my week and I I looked back and it felt good.

Yeah. Authentic leadership. You work with leaders and entrepreneurs. I'm really curious about this idea of authentic leadership and whether you've seen shifts in how people approach leadership roles. Um yeah, how does all like I feel like there's a change with this kind of hierarchical approach where it's like do as you're told and um you know the mignons at the bottom. Um yeah, so I'm curious to to hear your um insights, experience, like what you're seeing and what that means, how how leadership might be changing.

Authentic Leadership Trust And Impact

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh I am hierarchy years old, uh, meaning that my early leadership years were very much that sort of I'm the boss, you do do what you're told, don't complain, don't ask questions, the leader has all the answers and can't be doubted, right? I am that years old. Uh I and there are still pockets where this is happening. I I think where I where I get excited and what I celebrate is that those pockets are getting fewer and far, fewer and more far between. Uh, it is shifting a whole lot more to say, uh, now like good leaders are asking, how can I bring a level of vulnerability into my leadership? Leaders are asking, how can I build trust? Um, you know, I think 20 years ago leaders would say, How do I get people to do what I want them to do? Uh and I think the best leaders today are saying, How do I build trust? Um, so so I do celebrate that shift. I wish it would happen much, much quicker. Um, I I have one uh I have one person I work with who likes to use the word, uh, the words impact, like what impact did my action cause for you? Um, this is a tremendous leader leading people. And and what I see looking into that culture is that it builds trust and culture like like nothing I've ever seen before. When a leader can say, I made a mistake, what was the impact of my actions on you? That is like instant culture builder. That's instant trust builder. Uh, and and that's I think becoming more common. Um I here's my fear, Nadine. Um change systems don't like change.

Yeah.

Uh any system does not like change. My fear is that the pockets that say do what you're told, I'm the boss, listen. My fear is that those systems are going to double down. Uh, and and like as the shift is coming, those leaders are gonna say, no, this is bad. What I'm doing is right. Uh, I don't know that I have any anecdotes, but I do have a little bit of that fear in me that when one culture comes in, the outgoing culture will like scrape and claw. But I am pretty glad to see the shift uh that that we see. Would you say the same?

I think so. Yeah, that's definitely the sort of vibe that I'm getting from many people that I speak to, is that in order for change to happen, there needs to be that kind of almost a divide, like where the where the extremes become more apparent. So that kind of is how you've described it, where there's going to be that potentially that uprising of people trying the the old way trying to cling to um cling to something and and force it upon us. So I think that yeah, having an awareness of that happening is important.

Um I think the can can I say one more thing?

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Um we would say my my partner and I, we we would say like a leader is simply anybody that has somebody following them. Like that's all it means to be a leader. I I think the the the connection we make with that is that at some point the do as I say leaders won't have anybody following them. Like I think that's how that shift happens is at some point that scale shifts a little bit and people just don't follow those people because there's other leaders to follow or an abundance of those leaders to follow, where I don't I don't have to follow that leader anymore. So I am maybe a little hopeful about that.

Well, you know, it might not happen tomorrow, but I feel like the the work that you're doing, where you're and the conversations like this that we've just had, where we're bringing an awareness, you know, not just self-awareness, but awareness to people who might be curious about how they can do things differently, or or question actually, do I have to follow this person? Is there a better way? And you know, our answer is yes, there is, and it's happening. So seek those things out. Um 100%. And yeah, don't I mean, don't get caught up in the fear-based story. Hey there, Rebel. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Midlife Rebel Podcast. If you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to Buy MeACoffee forward slash Midlife Rebel Podcast. Thanks for listening.