Who Am I Now? Your Midlife Crisis Might Be an Awakening | Nathalie Cordell

When The End Line Moves Closer

A death, the diagnosis, the divorce, whatever, something that suddenly puts the end line inside. And when you think, hang on a minute, I don't really is this all I'm that's all there is. I'm supposed to just wake up in the morning, work, get money, put food on the table. What else?

So thank you for joining me. I when oh gosh, when you contacted me, I was like, I'm just amazed, and this this subject is something that yeah, it amazes

Two Women One Universal Midlife Shift

me. That you're in England, I'm in Australia, we've never met each other before, and yet we have had by the sounds of things the same experience when it's come to our midlife. And I'm just fascinated by this universal thing that happens to us, and that there are so many women that are starting to talk about it. Um and yeah, so that's what I'm starting with. So do you want to do you want to um share a little bit about like what happened to you in midlife? Well, we're we're both still in it, right? But what started to happen and things started to change, and obviously, yeah, it was a turning point.

My journey up till then, and I'll try and well, we'll see how I'll try and give you the the short version. Um, yeah, my journey through life, because in a way, you know, you have to talk about the journey before to make sense of the of the middle point and the and the crisis.

Building A Life On Achievement

But I was born and brought up in France, which is a very secular country, so there's a um by that I means you know the state and and and religion are are separate, and that that really has an an impact for me. Because even though a lot of people think of France as a Catholic country, or you know, mostly Catholic, there's really this sense that you know religion is separate from the state, and I wasn't brought up in a in a religious way. If anything, my my parents um rebelled against their, you know, particularly my dad, he's Catholic upbringing. And the the sense I was getting, it wasn't really explicit, but the the kind of messages that I absorbed from my family, from the culture is, you know, uh the intellect is where it's at. So I was good academically. If you want to pursue, you know, go far in life, you're good at both. I like both languages and and science. It's like, you know, go go for the science, that's where you know, where there's more doors open. And so I studied chemistry, I studied science, I ended up in the UK for a little bit of my study. I studied in the UK, found a job in pharmaceuticals, which aligned with my values. I I realized, you know, this idea of making people better, medicinal chemistry, you know, to me that was really close to my heart. So I ended up staying there uh for 21 years in the end. But my journey into corporate was when I first landed there, because I hear a lot of people say, Oh, you've climbed the ladder and then realize it was against the wrong wall. And it wasn't that for me. You know, I really loved my job, I loved working for pharmaceuticals. It wasn't that I was pushed into it. And it really aligned with the side of me that was high achieving, and I actually suddenly felt rewarded. You know, I feel like the first my uh up to my 20s, the first 20 years of my life, it's like you work really hard at school and there's homework and you're constantly being told off, and there's not a lot of reward other than little gold stars and you know, a degree. Whereas at work, it was like, oh my god, this is easy. I don't have homework, I just work nine till five and I get paid. This is brilliant. And I love the clarity of this is the path, these are the expectations, these are the objectives, you meet them, you get that. You know, there was a very satisfying feeling about that for me. So I just, you know, took to it like a duck to water and just climbed the ladder, you know, kept progressing, kept being given opportunities, and just tuned into what I would like. Um, I think the first little blow to my to my golden path was um about 10 years in, my role was made redundant, and suddenly it was like, oh, okay, I didn't expect that, which spurred me on to go even higher. I was like, okay, I'm gonna show them, you know, I'll just I'll just go for something even bigger. So that cycle of kind of achievement and and reward really worked for a while. And then as I was approaching my 30, there was the questioning about family, you know, do I want to the the urge to have children? So then I was really looking at, you know, m finding the right partner. So that was my my thing. And then I felt like I found the right partner, tried to for a family. And again, there was always a few obstacles in the way, you know, it wasn't smooth sailing. Um, but we had our our daughter, and then you know, I just thought, you know, tick, tick, tick, and then the longing became came again. I thought, okay, maybe another child. That didn't happen. So then it was like, okay, what's next? So there was always this feeling of what's next, you know, what's my next quest? The the all these little ticks, ticking boxes were fulfilling, but the fulfillment only lasted for so long. And I think the older I got, the the shorter the the high was, in a way, you know, I kind of akin that to a bit of an addiction to, you know, you get the high, you get the hit, but that hit doesn't last as long. And as I was approaching 40, um, my daughter was about seven then, so I was um out of what I would call the fog, the fog of mother early motherhood, where it was like, okay, she doesn't need me as much. What else is there for me? You know, I don't I don't want to just be a mother, you know, is lovely, but that's not enough for me. I want more. What is that more? So I kind of was running out of things to pin my discontent on. And I thought, okay, maybe it's work. I'll um maybe I just need to, you know, do something at work. And I really felt that the only path that I had was okay, the only path that was laid is you know, go to work and go for the next, you know, the next achievement, the next rung on the ladder, you know, just keep progressing. And what else? And this, what else was like a complete void of I've no idea. I don't have a model for what that might look like. So I went for it. I went for that. Um an opportunity presented itself at work for a stretch role, um, which I thought might be it, you know, might give me this sort of feeling of like this is it, I've I've found my next thing. And it didn't, it had the opposite effect, it completely crippled me. Um, because it was a different style of leadership. So up until now, I'd very much led through competence, having the answers, being very much in control, and that was like anything but so that was one reason. I felt like an imposter, I felt like I didn't know what I was doing, even though everybody was telling me I was doing a great job. But I think much deeper than that, there was really a sense of, you know, is do I even care? Is this really what I want to do? You know, I'm not sure. And I'd always led by from the heart, really, of my my career was all around leading the thread of my career, was leading change, if I look back, or at least the theme throughout my career. And I've always believed in the change that I was making, and I thought I can't, I'm starting to not really believe in it. Um, and I don't want to pretend. So the the little it's like an erosion of kind of like my foundation was starting to go away, which I couldn't quite put into words, and and I was um when I was talking to people, you know, maybe my husband, there was a no one could really understand what it was that I was on about. And it was like you've got everything that you need, you know, what's wrong with you kind of thing. So internally, uh there was this battle and this self-doubt, you know, am I going mad? What's what's wrong with me? Why can't I be happy for God's sake? And

Cancer Scares And The Collapse Of Certainty

then the turning point, the accelerator, was that year my mum and my sister were both diagnosed with cancer within about six months of each other. Um, they both survived just to east. Oh, I don't, I don't, I often I don't often say, I don't always say it if people don't ask something. Oh my god, I've left them on a massive cliffhanger. But it was a big thing, and I was almost this this thing that I dreaded all my life, in a way. I think I thought for for several years I had been feeling this feeling of impending doom that I couldn't quite understand. So there was a weird thing of like a part of me almost felt relief that it was like, oh my god, this is this is happening. But it really brought into focus all these questionings that I had and and accelerated that feeling of disconnection from my own life. So it was a little bit uh the only way I can describe it is kind of watching, watching your life from uh from behind a veil or like on a screen. I just felt like I was going through the motions. Removed from it. Removed from it, yeah. It was so like I was going through the motions and I thought I can't, I can't be bothered with this. I can't, you know, this is just is this it? You know, you just get up, you go to work. It's so there was a real longing in my heart for something more meaningful, something deeper, something, you know, life. I just wanted more, more life. I just couldn't really put words to it. So to accelerate a little bit, there was a a tipping point of a of a meeting that kind of didn't go uh well. I was trying to lead with with passion to set a provision, and I just um my boss, who was brilliant, um, kind of came in and redirected the workshop, but that just completely my confidence. And that night I came home and I I was like, I can't, I can't keep doing this, I can't do this anymore. Um, had a chat with my husband who I think was scared also because he was like, Well, you can't just quit your job, or you can, but what you know, there was a bit of back and forth. And I said, I said, I don't, I don't know what I want to do, but I know it's not that, and I just I I just can't keep doing that. So will you support me? Was effectively, you know, if I if I was to quit, would you would you support me for a while, you know, not forever. And uh he said yes. So I emailed my boss and said, you know, I can't, I just can't do this. Uh, because I didn't have, you know, it was that I appeared very confident and I was in a way, but to even speak the words face to face to her were too much. I I I emailed. And, you know, she was the one of the best boss I've ever had. And uh she came back and said, Yeah, let's talk about it. And she said, if you want to quit, you can, which actually felt like a huge relief, you know, this feeling of like, oh yes, I can, you know. And if you want to stay, you can. How about some coaching to help you figure things out? And I was very skeptical because I had been um, I can see you're smiling and nodding, so will you tell me if it resonates with your experience? But I had been very much the you know, independent, I can only count on myself, very warrior-like, you know, I've got all the answers, I'm in control. So coaching being presented to me as somebody helping you find the answers within. I was thinking, well, if I had the answers within, I think I'd already found them. Thank you very much. Um, so that was my attitude. But I just thought, you know what, I've got nothing to lose. I've already decided I'm quitting, so why not?

Coaching As The First Real Turning Point

Um, and that was the turning point because of of course the coaching was different, you know, to have a mirror of somebody who mirrors you back helps you hear yourself ask questions that you would dismiss based on the limiting, you know, the the blinders that you have, really started to to open my eyes to okay, what uh, you know, maybe I don't have all the answers. And to ask myself the questions that really matter, you know, she asked me questions like, What do you want? Why, what does it matter? What what does success look like? You know, um, and even though I didn't have the answers, I started to really sit down and think about it. So that was a big turning point in and then what became, you know, it's a journey of several years, it didn't happen overnight, but lots of little steps towards what do I really want. And, you know, initially I didn't know, I took a year, um, I slowed down for a year, but eventually I went back to studying. I discovered a psychology called psychosynthesis, which is a psycho-spiritual psychology. So, and I'm sure we'll we'll go into it. Um, and and it just explained, it just made sense. Everything that I'd been describing about that growing discontent, this feeling disconnecting, the wanting to fight that and the the worry that we were going mad, um, was all in a paper. So psychosynthesis was founded by uh uh an Italian psychiatrist called Roberto Asagioli, and one of his papers is called Psychological Disturbances, I think. But there's a whole chapter on the crisis preceding the awakening. So he frames it in the context of being a spiritual awakening, this awakening of your your spiritual nature. And reading that paper was like, Well, that's just me, that's everything I've been going through. You'll you'll you're saying this is normal and this is what you're going through. So that was really uh yeah, a big turning point. And I'll stop now because I've spoken for ages, so I'll let you I love that.

Oh, it's so good to hear it. It's and there's just familiar, you know, familiarity because um yeah, I I was very independent, you know, hard working, not corporate, but we you know, I worked in my a business with my husband, and my turning point came, and I've been I've been reflecting on it recently when I got I had uh we had our first child at 40 and and I was 40. And I and it didn't happen straight away, but there was that discontent, like this isn't like something's wrong, we need and we did the move, you know, we moved away from the city. Um, and but there's still this kind, yes, it's it's coming, but there's there's definitely um, yeah, this god, yeah. What it's kind of like this questioning, things don't feel right. Everything has been it felt like everything, like you said, had been completely plainsailing, logical all the way through my life, and then all of a sudden it was like, oh shit, I don't even know who I am anymore. Like I literally don't know who I am. But I love that also that you're not you don't you're not poo-pooing the that whole beginning of your life, like you you were in it, you loved it. Actually, when when I think about mine now, I was exactly the same, and it's really hard not to kind of go, oh well, that was wrong. Yes, you know, I was on the wrong path because it's part of the path, isn't it?

But um absolutely, but it takes yeah, it that's that's the integration. So to me, that's been my journey to actually realize that the the not knowing who you are, and you know, at some level um I laugh because I'm thinking every now and then I still I still ask myself, you know, who am I? What am I here for? What's my purpose? I'm like, really? Am I am I really asking all these questions again? So I just feel like, and and the way I've come to think of it is actually that is part of my nature. The the the seeker, the the one who's never satisfied, the it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. It's actually who I am, you know, that that curiosity that and if you think about it, and and many people look at my life and think, oh my god, you've had such a change and it's so different. And I'm like, actually, I haven't. It makes total sense because this is science, this is scientific, you know. The the the curiosity in me, I always felt like I ended up in science a bit by chance, or as I said, because the the message that I had was that, well, you know, science is where it's at. And I realized um a few years ago now, my my daughter, my dad bought my daughter a chemistry set for Christmas. She was probably, I don't know, 10 or maybe a bit younger. And I was super excited, and she wasn't. And we were doing experiments. There were experiments in there where you get to do um like uh like pH paper with red cabbage. You take red cabbage and you soak it, and then you soak in paper, and then you it's like pH paper, and you you know, you put in acid and it changes color. And I was, I was, I mean, even now, I'm like, I'm so excited. I'm like, this is brilliant, it changes color. And she was like, Yeah. So then I thought, okay, okay, maybe I didn't end up studying chemistry just by chance. There's something in me that just loves it, loves the discovery of you know, mysteries, asking the big questions and trying to find out why something is as it is. Um, which is why to me, you know, science and spirituality, even though they did feel like a world apart, the more I go into it, the more I think they're just two sides of the same coin. And and I mean, I've gone, you know, part of me is uh a lot of what I've had to do is is reconcile those two sides of me and being visible with them because my whole exploration of that realm was there's a big part of me that I think, oh my god, this is completely bonkers, you know, it's just total woo, this is nonsense. But I really what I've learned through my training was to notice the resistance, notice when there's resistance in you to whatever, and instead of pushing through it or defending, just be curious. What what what am I resisting? What is that about? And I honored that, and I do still try and honor that through, you know, that's my guiding principle. When I'm feeling resistance, it's like, okay, what is that about? What is that telling me? And just be curious, and that led me to explore. I did I discovered the College of Psychic Studies in London. Um I've been doing uh I bought Oracle cars, you know, the whole lot. I don't know what your listeners are like, but I know you've you've been open about this yourself, you know, crystals, everything. And and it's like it was like walking through the like Alice walking through the looking through through the mirror or going down the rabbit hole. It was like, oh my god, there's this whole world of people who have a completely different worldview, you know, telling me about spirit guys and different levels and whatnot. And I was yeah, it was just like fascinating. And I'm and I'm still, you know, there's still a part of me that's like, okay, you know, I'm discerning here, I'm gonna be a bit skeptical first, but at the same time, I'm thinking, why not? You know, they are in science, you know, we don't we we think of gravity and magnetism, and we think, yeah, this is very serious, this is scientific, and physics has proved it, we can measure it. They're invisible forces that you can't see. You know, several hundred years ago, that would have sounded crazy. Um, you know, so the fact that there is an invisible intelligence, you know, forces at play that we can't see, which sounds very um mystical, mystical, woo-woo, whatever. My belief, I don't I don't know if I'll see in my lifetime, is that actually it's just science will explain it at some point. We just don't have the words for it yet. But um, if you think about it, you know, we don't think anything weird of well, actually, you and I, you know, you're on the other side of the world, you're you're actually in my future, you know, it's it's late at night. I'm in your past, you know, and through the air, we're we're connecting through complete thin air, you're being on a it's kind of weird, isn't it? It's completely weird, it's crazy, and yeah, we just think, you know, no, this is fine. So um, yes. So I can't remember your question, but maybe there wasn't.

I can't remember whether there was a question either. I'm I'm curious about um, like when you hit this turning point, like and you found this whole other side of yourself. Do you feel like that was do you feel like there's like some kind of as we're brought into the world and brought up, you know, you mentioned your parents and the society that you lived in, that there's a part of us that's suppressed, and that so that side, you know, your intuitive, your feminine energy really didn't show up, and that you have to have these kind of moments in your life because you're not using all of who you are.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's my whole belief around midlife, and I do think to me, I I call it an awakening rather

Midlife As Awakening Not Breakdown

than a crisis. Although, you know, crisis is uh I remember hearing somewhere that the Chinese symbol, the the word crisis in Chinese is made of two symbols, and one means opportunity and one means danger. And I love that because to me, a crisis isn't necessarily something bad, it's it's something changing, but it's also a an opportunity. It just wants it's a moment of change of transformation, and uh it's I often say, you know, if we're lucky enough to to feel that crisis, because I'd looking back at it now, I think it's it's I'm not going to quite say it's a privilege, that would be lying, but uh well, you know, you not everybody may go through it. One, because we don't all live long enough to go through it. And B, to me, I think you only get to this once you have indeed ticked all the boxes. You know, I I do talk, I think the the one of the taglines for my book is for everybody, you know, you've ticked all the boxes and yet you're still not fulfilled. It's because, you know, if you're still fighting for survival, if you're still having to worry about putting food on the table and a roof over your head, you're never gonna have the opportunity to ask those bigger questions. So, in a way, and which is why midlife for me is not necessarily an age, it's a it's a spiritual point. So it could happen as early. I mean, to me, it started when I was early 30s, I think. And and I think it's for many people it's happening younger and younger. Um and it can, you know, my mum's how old's my mum now? She's 79, I think. Oh yeah, she's 79, and and it's almost like she's she's kind of going through it now or in parallel with me. Um, but um it's it's it we need to go through that first phase of development to become independent. So I believe that yeah, we all have an essence, you know, that kind of and often you do see it in little children, you know, that kind of unbounded spirit, you know, there's no filters. When you look at a young child, you just see their pure essence, and it is to me that spark of of spirit, of just you know who they are, and and it's beautiful. And we know that you know, as children, we can't, you know, if you go out in the world like this, completely with an open heart, meeting the world as it is, which to me is what it means to really live as your true self. When you do that, that as a child, you you get hurt, you're not, you know, there are there are people who will take advantage of you, you will get rejected, you could, you know, you could get in serious trouble. So it's not safe. We do need to learn to to be independent adults that that um can fend for ourselves, you know, function in the human world and have you know put food on the table. But once we've ticked all those boxes, that's when to me there is that calling, okay, so so what? And it often happens around midlife because that's also when we, for many of us, realize okay, life is finite. Yeah, that's so it can also happen when there's a reminder uh of you know, it could be a a day of the diagnosis, the divorce, whatever, something that suddenly puts the end line inside. And when you think, hang on a minute, I don't really is this all I'm that's all there is. I'm supposed to just wake up in the morning, work, earn money, put food on the table, and what else? Um, and the one of the models I love in psychosynthesis is it's um which works very well for my scientific mind because it's uh it's two-axis. So there's a horizontal axis which represents the the human, the material, and a vertical axis which represents the spiritual. And this idea that as human beings, we have a need for both. You know, we have a need for food shelter, but not and not just that, we also have a need to have relationships, feel like we're useful in the world, you know, um, yes, have material possessions, but also have an expression in the material world that we're feeling that we are grounded and we're part of it and we're contributing. But we also all have this spiritual side, which is where, you know, we long for um for beauty, for for connection, for um for me as a the scientist in me, you know, answers to big questions, you know, the the really pondering the mysteries of life, you know, we we all have that urge, whatever shape it takes, um, could be art, could be whatever. Um, and when we neglect one, at some point, you know, there's a there's a crisis. So some people go very much the spiritual line, you know, they'll they'll live on the edge of society, they'll they'll go to ashrams, they'll live in communities, you know, they're very much in that spiritual realm, but they're not very connected to the material, you know. They may struggle for money, they may um yeah, just struggle to to just find their place in society, which often will trigger what Asagioli called a crisis of duality when you say, you know, there's all these things, I'm connected to the great beyond and the trees and the grass and everything, but I'm still having to go through this blooming human journey, and it's painful. Um, and similarly, I think you and I probably went more down the material line. It's like, okay, I'm just gonna be super functioning, you know, do this, you know, get the stuff, get the house, get the job, you know, high achieving, brilliant. And then at some point, there's like, okay, but what else? Because I didn't have a spiritual life. So I think that calling for you're not just this body, you're not just, you know, there's something more to you. That's what manifests as um, again, what I said Joli calls a crisis of meaning, which I think happens often around midlife, which is what does my life mean? You know, what is my purpose? What is my legacy? Why, you know, why am I here? Who am I? Often the the first half of them, not first half, but the when we grow up, sort of teenage years, adulthood is this, who am I? Midlife is is a kind of a sometimes it's who am I, but there's a and and why, you know, why am I here? You know, that there's something about that.

Um, yeah, there's sort of midlife, there's it's like what is the truth? Like, is it my truth? Am I living my truth or am I living someone else's truth? I've had a bit of that going on as well. Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like it's a realignment to exactly the first, the first half of life, you you're having to survive. And in order to do that, and that's what I I describe in the book, um, because I use the I mean I I loved uh I love stories, I love, I love myth, I love sort of making sense of life with this. So the and the myth that I that was drawing me that I used as the as the map is the sleeping beauty, um, because it resonated

Reclaiming Feminine Power And Anger

my story, and also I could see it play out in other people's stories, so I I knew there was a pattern there. And there's another book that really inspired me for this called uh The Heroine's Journey. Okay, I have it by a lady called Maureen Murdoch, yeah, which basically laid out the map. And I and again he was like, Okay, that's that's my journey. I I get it. This idea that we set first have to leave that the feminine, there's a separation from the feminine, which can be both the you know, the mother, the physical mother, in order to grow, we have to leave our mother. But it can also be, and for me, that's what it was, this sort of internal separation from the feminine. To me, I had received the message that being feminine was weak. And and by this I mean, you know, I don't mean male or female, although obviously as female we maybe embody the feminine more, and as male, they embody the masculine more. But I'm talking of energies like yin and yang that we all have. And even though I identified as a woman, my realization through my training was how I had actually devalued those feminine qualities in me. So, what was your earlier questions about shutting that side of us away? And to me, I would say those qualities were sensitivity, emotions, you know, my connection with emotions, intuition. So this sort of yeah, feeling of like the felt sense, anything to do with intuition and the invisible, uh, my imagination, all qualities that I would associate with being a child, you know, like a I call her the princess, so that's the princess, you know. Oh, everything's magical. I believe in magic, I have a vivid imagination, you know, I'm just so sensitive. The world, you know, you live in the world of dreams. I had to shut that down away because I it just, you know, the the perception in the culture, so there was some was in my family of origin also, but in the culture that we lived in is that being all these things is well, it's not real impractical, it's not valued. Yeah, it's not reality. It's like, yeah, wake up, grow up, you know, get get a you know, wake up from you know, yeah, stop dreaming, exactly. And it's not valued, it's not practical. We tend society tends to value, you know, action, productivity, doing, results, tangible, which is all the young quality, the masculine qualities. So I definitely identified with female, so it wasn't the sort of identification, but deep down I was I was valuing my intellect more than my emotions. I felt like emotions were shameful and and and mushy and horrible, you know. It was like ugh. So that my whole journey was around uh reclaiming that part of me and those qualities. So the heron's journey, there is this first part looks like the the hero's journey. So it's separating from the feminine, uh going out in the world more with the masculine or identifying with the masculine, getting masculine allies. So to me, this was my intellect, my high-achieving personality. You know, I probably felt more comfortable in a group of men than I did with a group of women. Um, so ticking all the boxes, being success, and she talks about the uh the illusion of the success. Actually, she doesn't. She said, you know, getting the success, but suddenly for women and for the hero's journey, sorry, I'm jumbling a little bit, but for the hero's journey, often that's what it is. You get the success, and then you have to uh come back home and and kind of teach. So it's the if you've seen Star Wars, that's kind of the pattern, you know, the hero leaves home and fights the dragons and then comes home to tell the story. But for women, what she described, and that was really I was like, oh my god, you this is the first time I've heard I've heard it framed that way, and it so resonates. And she talks about this awakening to feelings of spiritual aridity, and this word aridity to me just described everything that I was feeling. I and and I've heard so many women resonate with this. It's almost like I've done all of this and I've done this, but I it feels arid, I feel dried, parched. There's something, there's like a yearning in me for something else that I can't name. And I feel like somehow I've betrayed myself, I've lost myself in the process. So hence that feeling that you've just described of who am I? What's going on here? So it's not to say you're not that high-achieving, but it's to me, it's that other part of you, which is the feminine, and I call it feminine with a big F. So in the Horin's journey journey, she talks about the reconnection with the goddess, so the descent to the to the goddess and the healing the mother-daughter split. And that journey for me was um, yeah, it is about going in the dark, so it's a very inner journey where, and I think we often describe men's midlife crisis as being very outwards, you know, they're going by the flashy car that's very outwards. I think for many women, I mean, certainly for me, I don't think people knew what was going on. It was all inside. I didn't share with anybody, and I and no one could tell. It's uh it's a it's an unraveling within, a dissolving within. Um, and it does feel like you're going in the dark. Um, and for me in the in the book, I use the metaphor the witch, because I feel like she's the one in the story that doesn't have a place. We tend to think of sleeping beauty or most fairy tales as an interplay between the princess and the prince, and those are the only two. And actually, the witch is really pivotal. And for me, again, I did lots of reading that makes sense of it all. It's she's part of the divine feminine, so the divine feminine has that dark goddess aspect, which is uh unlike Christianity, where you think the only image of the feminine that we have is of um the Virgin Mary, so you know it's it's mother, young, young mother and sexless, you know, um, or uh Eve, I guess the the one who's betrayed, you know, it's like everything falls on her, it's like curiosity caused man's downfall. But this powerful feminine, and and there's some people call her Lilith. Uh, I mean there's there's different deities in in in the east, there there's she's there in the east, there's often three different types of goddesses: there's the the creator, there's the one who holds the balance, and there's the destructor. So it's um Kali, for example, in in Indian mythology, and um there's other other mythology where there is this sort of dark goddess who's actually um powerful. So, you know, she she's she's the the force of destruction. So in and that's what we portray the witch as, you know, very powerful but evil, you know, dark and evil, and and we're scared of her when really uh and she can be scary because that kind of destruction could be hard to hold. Um, but we need her as much as you know, we need the dark as much as we need the light because her wisdom is around boundaries, it's around you know destroying, you know, the the the fire of anger is around being able to recognize what doesn't serve you anymore. Um and and she is the wise woman in in in the fairy tales, you know, often we we um in the in the kind of classic fairy tale of the sleeping beauty, because that's the example I'm using, it is the wise woman. They're invited round the table as wise women, but that there's one that's forgotten about, and often it's it's that, it's the the less palatable aspects of feminine power that have I think over time have been demonized, made evil, cast out from society. And as women who are very adapted to society, we're subconsciously, you know, a lot of this is subconscious. We're kind of conditioned to be good girls, you know. Good girls don't get angry, anger's bad. And what happens is that anger gets turned on ourselves. So we have usually have very, very strong inner critics. Um, it can turn at words, I mean, to me, would leak out in in ways that I couldn't really control, particularly with my family, my husband, you know, I would just like literally lash out, and then feel deep shame around it. So a lot of my work was around reclaiming, reclaiming that part of me and and understanding anger. And as as you say, we're still in it. I'm still you know, this is this is lifelong. I will I'll still I'll still have to work at it, but at least even recognize that anger isn't bad, anger is energy, emotions are energy, and they're just they're they're information about what I'm feeling and what I need. Um so yeah, that was too uh very long answer to your question about shutting one part away and and what that part is and and and reclaiming it as well.

So absolutely, I think there's a real it's kind of um there's a a real sort of um mix

Psychosynthesis Parts Work And The Deeper Self

of like obviously the work that you're doing, but also your own personal experience, uh psychosynthesis you've mentioned, and then the book that you've written, and and like that, yeah, there's kind of like a it all it's all weaving together, isn't it? It's all part of things.

Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, it's my life of work, and yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Can you talk to us a little bit more about how like your experience of psychosynthesis? Is that how you kind of got to the point where you you know you were in that that's that space where you didn't really know what the hell was going on, you just knew that you didn't feel the same. Was psychosynthesis the modality that really helped you to discover that?

Yes, I mean the way I came to it, um as I've said before, you know, it was lots of little steps. And and the first um I came to it because I had a training, a coaching training in my corporate world. Um, so you know, very I could relate to it because that's where I was coming from. But I wanted, I was starting to think about, you know, oh, I I think I like this coaching thing. Maybe this is it, maybe I want to go down that route, you know, maybe this is my calling. I didn't think I thought it was a calling then, but I was curious about it. And but my work wasn't training any more coaches, so I asked one of the trainers, you know, where can I train? Is that do you know of a coaching training? And she looked at me and she said, You want to go to the Institute of Psychosynthesis? And it felt a bit like I felt like she was seeing right through me, like right through my soul. I thought, this woman, I've not really spoken to her, I've not shared much about her. I didn't feel like I had shared much, even though I had shared in the training. But whatever she said just felt like, oh my God, she's just seeing through me. So I I checked them out, I checked out their website, and there was a big part of me that felt, oh, this just sounds really woo and hippie and a bit, you know, fluffy, and I know so a lot of resistance. And I thought, I trust this woman. I I really, you know, she was grounded, she she she was there. So I thought, okay, let me let me pursue this. But everything on the website was also speaking to my heart. So there was there was this duality, or like, you know, big defenses, big armor. But it was talking about this idea that there's more to our bodies, there's more to us than our bodies, our feelings and our thoughts. You know, we are spiritual beings, having a human experience. We all have this um natural urge towards wholeness, towards beauty, you know, all of that. And you know, my heart was was just like, oh yes, you know, but at that time it was a bit afraid to completely, it's almost like um, yeah, it was just too afraid to open up to it for fear of being disappointed. Um, but because I trusted this woman, I thought, okay, let me take the step I can take. And they had a four-day fundamental, so I just thought, okay, four days I can do that. I'll go to the four days, and it was totally transformative because um it was unlike anything I'd ever done. So it was totally bonkers, you know, we sat in a circle, you know, there was meditation, all sorts of stuff. But again, he was just like, oh my god, it makes sense. It gave me a framework for what I was going through, you know, this context of there's two sides of us, and our job is to reconcile them, to go from um, you know, stop it. It's like to find dynamic balance, is what I would describe it. And sometimes that's what we find in life is that we end up swinging one way and then we swing right back to the other way. And often that's what midlife crisis will look like. So you'll have people who'll swing, you know, be really high-achieving CEOs or whatever, and they'll have a spiritual awakening, and then they they're off in to India and just you know, meditating eight hours a day, and then so it's that's the extreme, but the idea is you you to to kind of find ways and tools, that's what psychosynthesis gave me, to to just stop the the extremes and find a little bit more balance. There's always tension, there will always be tension. To me, you know, there's always a part of me that just longs to just be part of spirit, and this it's this calling to be part of everything, um, to be connected to everything. You know, we all have um in psychosynthesis, we describe it as divine homesickness. I love that. It's just like, you know, I just want to go home. I, you know, I just long for home and that feeling of um so that longing, you know, is is is often there, but it's I also have a longing to to be in the world and to change the world and have a positive impact. And those two sides of me. So that we all have that, we all have those tensions. There is no perfect, but in a way, it's in seeking it's in seeking resolution that we then live our life and become creative and just um so that's you know, that was one of the model. Another model that to me was absolutely transformative is this idea that we um have subpersonalities or parts. I think nowadays it's probably more, you know, a lot of people recognize that. But that was completely new to me, you know, when they say we have different parts. Yes, I have a high achieving part, I have a very sensitive, you know, dreamlike part, I have a very powerful um angry part. So to me, you know, that this is why I like the archetypes of the story, because it's it helps me be a bit more playful with it. And the whole premise of psychosynthesis is that we spend most of our life identifying with things that are changing. So we'll identify with our bodies and our bodies age. We'll identify with the roles that we play in the world, in the in the world, you know, whether it's a job or and then you get made redundant, or maybe it's being a mother, and then your children leave, or you know, we, or maybe it's being a wife and then you have a divorce. Um, so we identify with our emotions, you know, and we say, I'm angry, I'm sad. But we identify with things that are transient and that change. And so there that's why we end up saying, you know, who am I? Because I keep I keep plonking my identity to things in the world that are um transition um that transition, that are transient. But we all have the the self, so with a big Or small less, I don't know. When we actually disidentify with all of that, and to me, it was a it was a meditation that we went through about going through the body, emotions, and and thoughts, and then letting all of that go and still going down to you know, where does that take me? So it's it's not theoretical, it was a real experience of a visceral experience of connecting with with what remains when I'm not any of these things. And the only way I can describe it, and I talk about in the book, is it felt home when I did this meditation? I felt, I felt like I was connecting. I'm feeling the emotion now again. I feel like I was connecting with just something deeply familiar and something that I had been longing to return to, that quest for what I was looking for, you know, the one outside where there was the right, you know, the husband, the role, the child. It was just within me all along. And you could never stay there, you could get little glimpses of it, but that's that's the the practice. So psychosynthesis, yeah, gave me all those tools and the container. So I what I didn't say, maybe I need to say that to make it clear, is I then went on to study uh an MA for three years, and the first two years of that was group work, you know, there were sort of 18, 20 of us, and so it was deep psychological work, group work. Um, to go down, to look at all those lost paths. You know, I have therapy is part of that process as well. To effectively, like most, you know, we need to learn to reparent ourselves. You know, we all have an inner child, and we need to become our own good mother or good father, whatever that is, and learn to recognize all those different parts and what they need and what they want, and become uh the conductor of our own orchestra, or you know, if I'm staying true to my book, it's you know, become the queen of your own realm. This idea that actually when you come from that disidentified part, you you can see more, you can see, you can understand the messages, you can have compassion for maybe a part of you that feels really overwhelmed or vulnerable or furious, and just ask, you know, what is it that you need, and and give that part of you what it needs. And it's it's amazing. It's it's really transformational work. But it's I had that container so I could unravel. That's what I would say. And I talked about this deep inner work. Um, to do that work, you need to have a container where you can feel safe to actually melt a little bit and drop the armor and start to ask those big questions. Um, you know, whilst managing the life that goes on. So to me, I would have, you know, I would go to work in the day and and in the week and then be with my family, and then I would have training weekends, two days very intense, being very held in a container of love, because that's what I would describe it, and then having to go back out in the world and just do stuff. So it was a a long process, but psychosynthesis was the map. So for me, you know, it's not it's not a quick fix, it's not a you take the pill and you're better, but it's at least gives you a map for oh, this is this is a human journey, this is what's going on, and and this is the map. And there's there's kind of two parts to the map. The first one is around doing that personal psychosynthesis to kind of getting your shit together, just understanding well, all those different parts, the one that are wild, the one that you've locked in the cupboard, the one that you feel ashamed of, the one that are running the show all the time, and you know, understanding which part they play and starting to coordinate them. And eventually, and it's not necessarily linear, but eventually um it there's then another part of the journey, which is this realization that um how can I describe it? That the way I would describe it is the first part of life, I would say, you know, it's all about me, it's all about I, you know, who am I in the world and learning to be that individual and and all of that. But then that midlife call to me is then this idea that actually um I have a soul, a higher self, whatever you want to call it. You know, there's there's a bigger plan in the universe that I don't necessarily know, but I know I have a part in that plan. And if I'm willing to listen, I know that my soul or again, whatever word you want to call it, is is there to guide me, that all the nudges, so whether it's discontent, longings, intuition, you know, are basically there to nudge me on my path. Um, because my job here is to be the best version, is to be more of me, effectively, and to just shine my brightest. Um, it led me to write a book. You know, I never the book was never my childhood dream, never that was not one of mine. I felt like I was kind of told, or you know, you know, the message was you need to write a book. And part of me was like, I don't really want to. But the intuition was like, that's that's that's your journey, that's what you're meant to. And that's what I mean by the second half of life is this feeling of actually there's a bigger will. Yes, I have will and I've have a role to do in the world, but there's a bigger will, and um, so that in psychosynthesis we call it the transpersonal psychosynthesis, when it becomes more about listening for what does self, the universe want me to do, and trying to live my life according to that, so I can be as close as possible to the path of my greatest evolution.

That was a big answer. That was a great answer. And I'm just um yeah, you're mentioning you you've talked about your book a little

Writing Awakening The Sleeping Queen

bit, and I just wonder how like what how does it is it a story? Because you've talked about the um using those archetypes of the fairy tale. Um, and like who would who's it for? Like obviously we're women in midlife and and you're having this experience, and so probably you want to teach other women about how to do it. But is that yeah kind of like a is it a how-to or is it uh fair? That's a good question.

Yeah, that's a good question. So I know I I was very resistant to writing a how-to because of my experience of how-to's when you have you know exercises, and it's even though my book, so it's awakening the sleeping queen, how to reclaim your feminine wisdom and power. So there is a how-to in there, how-to, but it's a different it's a different kind of how-to. So for me, uh it's very memoir-led, so there's a lot of my own stories in there, and not it's not a memoir in that it's it is it is a self-help, but I wanted it to be real. So for me, it's um I mean, there were two books that were inspiring me when I was writing. One was Untamed by Glenn Doyle. I don't know if you've read that.

No, I haven't read it.

It's it is a memoir, and it's a very raw memoir. And the other one was If Women Rose Rooted by Sharon Blackie, which is more about myth and and and fairy tales.

The witch, I think. Yes, yes, I've read which.

Um, and and to me, I wanted a blend of the two. So it's it's it takes you, it's a map to that journey. So from the slumber, and and there's 10 chapters, and it follows the heron's journey. So connecting with the princess within, um, it it goes through, you know, building the tower, um, the illusion of the quest for success, the illusion of success, the the uh the crisis point, and then the integration. So the the first half is probably more autobiography because it's about, and my intention there for the reader is about reflecting back to your own journey, you know, and what were the messages that you um absorbed unknowingly? You know, are they still serving you? What are you hiding in the tower? You know, what what brings you shame? Uh, what's your relationship with a with a soft inner princess within you, which is to me, you know, close to our inner child in our own essence? So it's uh it's a very soft how-to in that it's inviting people to reflect. So there's self-reflections, questions at the end. So it's really a guide, I would say, for your inner journey. Um the the second half, there's more maybe how-to, so there's a bit more teaching around some of the psychological models and things that have helped me. But it's using those archetypes, so the princess, the tower, the prince, um the witch, um uh the the mother, so and and then you know, understanding how we need to re-mother ourselves, we need to heal the prince as well. You know, the prince is needs healing as much as every other part, and then how how to also um work with conflict. So the last chapter is called Happily Ever After, um, which is about actually, yeah, what does that look like in practice? Leaving living in balance with all this part. So um, yeah, it's a map for the journey, and in terms of who it's for, um, because I don't think so. Some men have bought my book, and I'm still yet to speak to them to say, you know, I really love to hear how you resonate with that, because I believe that some men can resonate with the journey, or at least suddenly I would love for some men to read it to understand the the some of their women's perspective, if their women um resonate with it. Uh, I also know it's not every woman's journey, so it's I think it's a particular kind of women. And so the way I would describe it is yeah, the women that have achieved everything, ticked all the boxes, and yet feel that deep dissatisfaction and that longing. So um, that's who it's for. So if you feel like anything we've been talking about, you know, that there's something missing, I don't even know what it is, I don't know how what to call it. I would say I'm really hoping that you pick up the book and that this will just give you, you know, it won't give you, it won't fix you because there's nothing to fix. You're already whole, but give you the map to make sense. Oh my god, this is what's going on. Because that's honestly these books that I've talked about, you know, um, The Heron's Journey. There was another one, Women Who Run With Wolves, uh great book. When I read them, it was like, oh my god, um I feel seen, you know, I feel like I'm not alone. Um, and that's you know, that's what I'm hoping that people will feel when they when they read my book.

Amazing. And I love the title. Like, as soon as I saw that, I was like, it's just like a yes, you know, awakening, the sleeping queen. Like, you are the queen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the that's the story.

Yeah, we all are the queen. We just need to get back to her.

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Do you and so now you you still do you still work in corporate? Like you are you coaching people

Life Now Boundaries Practice And Trust

in corporate people in corporate? What what does life look like for you now?

What does life look like? Still like a journey. Um, you know, I've written this book, so now I'm promoting and I'm thinking, okay, I've done my B, I'm still doing that. In terms of my work, so I don't, yeah, I I don't work in corporate. I work a lot of the work I do is um as an associate for a company that um deals with people being made redundant. So I know that journey from having gone through it. So it's people in transition, so there are a lot of people in corporate that come from that. So I I bring I bring that side, and then I also have a uh a private coaching practice as well, small, um, that you know is is for for women. A lot of people who come to me tends to be there's a lot of coaches, people you know, women who've done the work themselves and kind of you know they've done some of the work and they're they're wanting to go deeper. Um, I'm a coaching supervisor as well. So um, and what else do I do? Yeah, facilitation as well. So I facilitate workshop. But it's you know, it's it is tricky because it's about bridging, and and I still struggle with it. As I said, there's still that tension between how do you bridge all of this into the practical? But I do think there's a lot of practical stuff in terms of nervous system regulation, you know, understanding about boundaries. So I just ran a workshop last week about boundaries, you know. To me, that's all about the witch and the anger and and learning in a way to say it's okay. We need, you know, we need that. So um, so I can, you know, I can be very practical and grounded, and I still do that. But I also have to feed my spiritual sides, I also do uh I write, I write a blog on Substack called Source Seeds. Um I I do some kind of drawing, I'm exploring my creativity. So some of that work isn't necessarily public, but I do um and I do um I still do courses with the College of Psychic Studies as well. So I feel like almost, you know, this is this is what feeds my soul and what feeds my body is like, you know, and and it's okay, you know, it's it's I think what I've realized on my journey. I used to find I I mean I'm still at some level looking for the one, you know, the one thing that's gonna tick all the boxes. Will I ever learn? I don't know. Um, but I've learned that actually it's it's okay to have different things, different things that fill different parts of me. You know, I don't have to expect one thing to fulfill all the answers.

Yeah, I think that's a um good way to be. Um, and I was actually gonna ask you like if you felt now having gone through this um or you know, experienced this big change in your life, whether you feel like you are more on your you know, on your path.

Yes, yes, I do feel like I'm on my path. I still, you know, there's still a part of me. Sorry, I'm laughing because I'm like, oh bless her. You know, part of me that's like, come on, give me the whole path. 10 years ahead, plan. I want to see the whole picture, you know, give me the project plan, tell me what to do. So I still, you know, that part of me still like gets so frustrated. And it's something like, okay, just chill, breathe, relax. Just you know, that's my experience with spirit, the universe, whatever you call it. It's just it's just giving you the little next step. It's like shining, it's like um don't know if you do hiking, you know, if you do hiking with a head torch on a head torch, you can just only see like a little bit ahead of you, and that's it. You can't see the whole path. So, but I know I am on the path, absolutely. I'm on the path of, and and to me, it's it's kind of having practices in place to to connect, to listen, to make time to get quiet, look after my body, look after, you know, um, so like I do yoga, you know, I have a morning routine, all of that. Um, and that's about and and patience, patience, surround, and I have so many lessons still to learn, you know, patience, I'm still so impatient. Uh, and just link learning to say, okay, you know, I I know I'm on the path, and I need to trust, trust that I'll be given the answers and the support when I need it, which is, you know, yeah, not easy to trust. You know, it's it's a constant, it's a constant practice.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Oh, I've absolutely loved meeting you. Thank you so much for joining us, and I'm really looking forward to reading your book. Hey there, Rebel. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Midlife Rebel Podcast. If you'd like to

Support The Podcast And Closing

support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to Buy MeACoffee forward slash Midlife Rebel Podcast. Thanks for listening.